CT LEO carry to training class in MA?

[snake eater 332]

I'm a LEO in CT and I'll be attending a handgun training class in MA in July. I'm paying for this class out of my own pocket, but I'll be submitting the training credits/certificate to my agency upon its completion. I'll be using my duty 9mm Sig P226R for the class and bringing several issued 15 and 20 round mags for use in class.

Are my Sig and its mags MA compliant in the first place? I know I'm covered under HR 218/LEOSA, but will I have any potential issues because I'm paying for the class and my agency is not?

This is the first out of state training class that I'm paying for myself and I just want to ensure that I'm fully prepared.

 

[joe1231913]

Im pretty sure you are covered under LEOSA. LEOSA is for off duty carry, so whether your agency or you are paying doesnt matter. Thats how I understand the law......

 

[OfficerObie59]

The MA handgun "compliance" issue only concerns FFL gun sales, so your Sig is of no issue.

However, both rifle and pistol magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds manufactured after 1994 are subject to the MA AWB. The ban provides an exception to LEO's as long as the excepted item is being used for "law enforcement purposes". The specific definition of that phrase has been the subject of recent dispute lately, and has yet to be defined by case law--some feel it applies to the limited circumstances of actually working, others feel it applies to any LE activities like training, and some officers see it as a professional and personal exception.

From a practical standpoint, if they were issued by your PD and you're using the class for job-related training credit, in the unlikely circumstance you're hastled AND the cop doing the hastling actually knows of the restriction on post-ban mags, I would think your activities would be your saving grace.

With that said, this is my opinion. If I mistated the law, someone please feel free to correct me. As far as carrying, as long as you meet LEOSA requirements, you're good there.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I agree with Obie's analysis.

Regrettably, LEOSA does NOT address magazines directly so that hi-cap mags in banned states for LEOs is a gray area. That said, since it is for training to improve your job skills, my "opinion" (and that's all it is) is that you should be fine.

Good luck and enjoy the class.

 

[WC145]

I can't imagine you having a problem. You're covered by LEOSA, you're carrying your duty weapon, and you're there for training. I can't see where you'd have a problem.

I've traveled all over the east coast and down to Texas since LEOSA came to be, always armed, never an issue.

 

[In God We Trust]

I thought that magazine capacity was irrelevent under LEOSA? I just re-read the text of it and could find no direct reference. Wasn't it gliddens's opinion that the only things limited by LEOSA where long guns that were post ban? I don't remember ever hearing any opinions about magazine for handguns.

This is the FOP's official opinion on what you can carry:

Can I carry any type of firearm or ammunition under this law?
No. The exemption provided under this Federal law applies to the carriage of concealed firearms
only. The definition of “firearm” in this statute specifically excludes machine guns, silencers,
explosives or other destructive devices as these terms are defined in Federal law.
However, recent amendments to the Federal law do extend the exemption to allow the carriage
Revised 11/3/10 4
of ammunition “not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the
National Firearms Act.” This means that qualified active and retired law enforcement officers
may carry ammunition in States which may have prohibited the possession of certain
ammunition by persons not actively serving in law enforcement within that State.

 

[OCPD806]

Under the LEOSA you are allowed to carry your pistol with any mag, anywhere you go in the USA. However it does not cover any rifle/shotgun. I had the same issue a couple weeks ago, I called some lawyer in MA, he said it is possible that a MA LEO might issue you a citation but it would be dropped under the LEOSA

 

[GSG]

I thought that magazine capacity was irrelevent under LEOSA?

The short answer federally is slap in sissy mags or be a test case. Unfortunately most of the states with mag cap bans tend to spread misinformation to LE or make up their own illegal rules, so you're much more likely to have problems in the 1st place. Hawaii is a notable example of illegal policies for people covered by the act.

When coupled with MGL I'm with Obie & Len.

Under the LEOSA you are allowed to carry your pistol with any mag,

Unlikely, but untested. Benjamin Booth had a high cap mag in his Glock 23 when arrested in NY and he wasn't charged for the mag, but it was likely pre-ban since he got the gun in Mass., and even he didn't seem to know he was covered by LEOSA so it's not a good example.

anywhere you go in the USA.

Nope. You have a different set of places off limits, including anywhere within 1000' of a federally defined school if you're not licensed by the state you're in.

However it does not cover any rifle/shotgun.

Yes it does, as long as they're not full auto/DD's.

I called some lawyer in MA, he said it is possible that a MA LEO might issue you a citation but it would be dropped under the LEOSA

It's a felony charge, hardly a citation. But LEOSA was loosely interpreted to favor the cop (who wasn't even covered by it in the 1st place, BTW) in the only case I'm aware of in Mass. where it's been used as a defense, so you could luck out. He also wasn't charged for the mags, or for being a felon in possession for 11 years by the feds.

 

[OCPD806]

Unlikely, but untested. Benjamin Booth had a high cap mag in his Glock 23 when arrested in NY and he wasn't charged for the mag, but it was likely pre-ban since he got the gun in Mass., and even he didn't seem to know he was covered by LEOSA so it's not a good example.

Nope. You have a different set of places off limits, including anywhere within 1000' of a federally defined school if you're not licensed by the state you're in.

Yes it does, as long as they're not full auto/DD's.



It's a felony charge, hardly a citation. But LEOSA was loosely interpreted to favor the cop (who wasn't even covered by it in the 1st place, BTW) in the only case I'm aware of in Mass. where it's been used as a defense, so you could luck out. He also wasn't charged for the mags, or for being a felon in possession for 11 years by the feds.

I am only stating what the lawyer told me. When I said you can carry anywhere in the USA I meant in any state, there are some places where you cant carry. He told me that if a rifle is considered a assault rifle by MA, it is not legal for an out of state leo to have it there. He didnt give me a very good answer about high-cap shotguns though.

 

[snake eater 332]

What about carrying my off-duty .40 S&W Glock 27 in MA? The Sig is kinda bulky and difficult to conceal on my frame. The Glock only has a 9 round mag plus 1 in the tube and I am certified/qualified and authorized through my agency to carry it off-duty. Would LEOSA cover me as well?

 

[In God We Trust]

What about carrying my off-duty .40 S&W Glock 27 in MA? The Sig is kinda bulky and difficult to conceal on my frame. The Glock only has a 9 round mag plus 1 in the tube and I am certified/qualified and authorized through my agency to carry it off-duty. Would LEOSA cover me as well?

Yes

 

[snake eater 332]

Guys, thanks for all the info, I appreciate it! I'm really looking forward to the class with Rob Pincus this weekend! Should be a lot of fun!

 

[GSG]

What about carrying my off-duty .40 S&W Glock 27 in MA? The Sig is kinda bulky and difficult to conceal on my frame. The Glock only has a 9 round mag plus 1 in the tube and I am certified/qualified and authorized through my agency to carry it off-duty. Would LEOSA cover me as well?

Yes, but remember LEOSA applies even if your agency swears up and down it doesn't. If you're covered you're covered, criminally there's nothing they could do, but you could get hung up if your agency policy didn't allow you to carry something/anything off duty. Carefully read the law, as long as you qualify under it you're good to go legally.

 

[bigmanfugitive]

Ok, LEOs are covered. What about CT COs? Are they covered under LEOSA? Or more specifically a MA resident working as a CT CO? Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Sean

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ok, LEOs are covered. What about CT COs? Are they covered under LEOSA? Or more specifically a MA resident working as a CT CO? Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Sean

The answer to this is very dependent on what LE status a CT CO has and whether or not it complies with the LEOSA law for meeting those requirements. I can tell you that many MA LEOs look down their noses at COs (and anyone other than FT muni POs or state troopers/highway patrol), so their reaction (belief that someone is covered or not) is likely not to be favorable even if the CT CO is covered.

 

[stinx]

Not all Ma cops look down at corrections or reserve officers.

 

[In God We Trust]

Ok, LEOs are covered. What about CT COs? Are they covered under LEOSA? Or more specifically a MA resident working as a CT CO? Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Sean

If you have statutory powers of arrest then you are covered. I know that MA CO's are covered, but I would ask your union rep what the official stance is. Beware asking your LT. as their answer is often "no" due to official policy. LEOSA is a federal law and it applies even if your chief does not want it to. The union would be the best place to ask.

 

[In God We Trust]

Not all Ma cops look down at corrections or reserve officers.

Not all, but most do in my experience. It's mainly the sheriff's department that they hate in MA, not so much DoC.

 

[GSG]

Ok, LEOs are covered. What about CT COs? Are they covered under LEOSA?

You need to do your own research into that to determine if your agency & your personal circumstances put you in compliance with 18 USC 926B. Chances are that you are covered, as CO's from the CT DOC do have statutory powers of arrest, which is the biggest hurdle to overcome in most "Am I covered?" LEOSA questions.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap961.htm#Sec54-127.htm

Sec. 54-127. Rearrest. The request of the Commissioner of Correction or any officer of the Department of Correction so designated by the commissioner, or of the Board of Pardons and Paroles or its chairman shall be sufficient warrant to authorize any officer of the Department of Correction or any officer authorized by law to serve criminal process within this state, to return any convict or inmate on parole into actual custody; and any such officer, police officer, constable or state marshal shall arrest and hold any parolee or inmate when so requested, without any written warrant.

But you still have some reading to do on your job, don't stop here.

Or more specifically a MA resident working as a CT CO?

Chances are that's not relevant, unless through some bizarre legislative craziness non-residents can't be sworn. I took a quick look at various CT statutes and can't find anything that would indicate that, but I'll admit I've barely looked. If you plan to rely on LEOSA, you should to know it inside and out, because chances are good if you don't know if you're covered, neither will the cop you're dealing with in another state.

Not all Ma cops look down at corrections or reserve officers.

True, but how many believe CO's have LEOSA coverage? Even in pro-gun states you hear all the time "That law only applies to cops" or all kinds of other strange, imagined restrictions. If I had to bet, I'd say CO's would get more scrutiny than street cops when carrying off duty.

If you have statutory powers of arrest then you are covered.

Generally yes, but not always. Every provision of the federal statute must be met. Chances are good if you have statutory authority then you're good to go, but some places have strange loopholes.

I would ask your union rep what the official stance is. Beware asking your LT. as their answer is often "no" due to official policy. LEOSA is a federal law and it applies even if your chief does not want it to. The union would be the best place to ask.

Agree 100%, they probably get asked that question a lot.

 

[mark056]

"Glidden's Opinion" Who the F*** is he, and what qualifies him to have an "OPINION" He is just another "Political Phony". Other than that an a**h***.

Joe,

What's your beef with Glidden? Have you worked with him personally?

 

[Len-2A Training]

"Glidden's Opinion" Who the F*** is he, and what qualifies him to have an "OPINION" He is just another "Political Phony". Other than that an a**h***.

Well, that's YOUR OPINION!

We're all entitled to our own opinions, you have one, I have one, Glidden has one, and each reader here has one too.

At this point in time, I'm not sure WHOSE opinion is being pushed . . . only that EOPS is coming out with "Advisory Opinions" and sending them to all the chiefs and DAs, just begging them to jam up as many LEOs as possible on very specious grounds (re-interpretation of MA gun law, with a total spin). I really don't know if this stuff is Glidden's, EOPS attorneys or CJIS attorneys "Opinions" . . . just that it is being disseminated w/o signatures or dates (to prevent accountability).

[I cover these gray areas in my MA gun law seminar and let each attendee come to their own conclusion on how they decide to deal with that info. If we didn't have activist judges in MA, most of this BS would get thrown out on any attempt to prosecute. My Opinion is that relying on the law as written is very dangerous in a MA court with an agenda to push (and that is probably all of them)!]

 

[BeastlyAdams]

question. How can anyone in Mass tell if my magazine was made prior to 1994?

 

[Len-2A Training]

question. How can anyone in Mass tell if my magazine was made prior to 1994?

Since LEOSA does NOT address mags (only ammo and guns) and MA has once again issued one of those "advisory memos" claiming that even LEOs can't carry large-capacity mags (new) after their shift ends, plus non-MA LEOs can't carry any handguns/large-capacity long guns into MA unless they are on-duty . . . the age of your mag won't be the real issue here.

I think all the above is BS, but what I think isn't the ruling authority and since EOPS sent these memos to the DAs and every police chief in the state, their intent is to have LEOs arrested and prosecuted under bogus charges that fit in a gray area.

As many have said, MA is a "lost state" and not just for lawful gun owners either, now they are going after LEOs too.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Since LEOSA does NOT address mags (only ammo and guns) and MA has once again issued one of those "advisory memos" claiming that even LEOs can't carry large-capacity mags (new) after their shift ends, plus non-MA LEOs can't carry any handguns/large-capacity long guns into MA unless they are on-duty . . . the age of your mag won't be the real issue here.

So, if I understand what you wrote, EOPSS is saying out of state LEO's can't carry any pistols, high cap or not, unless they're on duty?

 

[Len-2A Training]

So, if I understand what you wrote, EOPSS is saying out of state LEO's can't carry any pistols, high cap or not, unless they're on duty?

As I recall the discussion, this is what they stated. Then they grudgingly (and I mean this the way it reads/sounds) threw in a disclaimer that LEOSA "might" allow them to do so IFF they were LEOSA qualified. However, since LEOSA does not address large-cap mags and the official EOPS position is that MA LEOs can't carry them off-duty even if department-issue, I expect them to try to prod DAs to prosecute both in-state and out-of-state LEOs for carrying large-cap mags. A smart ADA won't do this, but I'm not convinced that all of them are that smart!

Sorry if I misstated previously, I wasn't intending to be misleading. I hadn't had my first cup of coffee by the time I wrote that.

 

[Kisspik002]

gun laws

All these different guns laws make me crazy...now you even have other LEO's posting questions because no one wants to get in trouble...we NEED a nation wide ruling on carrying for LEO's and civilians. LEO's whether cops or co should be able to carry anywhere anytime

 

[GSG]

their intent is to have LEOs arrested and prosecuted under bogus charges that fit in a gray area.

And with the pecking order of Mass. law enforcement, you can pretty much guarantee that certain LE covered by LEOSA will get hassled or arrested carrying under LEOSA.

we NEED a nation wide ruling on carrying for LEO's and civilians. LEO's whether cops or co should be able to carry anywhere anytime

The problem is that the Mass. legislature believes that they're above certain federal laws & court decisions.

 

[jasons]

Must be nice to be more equal than the other animals.

 

[In God We Trust]

The problem is that the Mass. legislature believes that they're above certain federal laws & court decisions.

I have had this conversation recently with a couple of municipal cops I know. One of them stated that his chief makes them carry ONLY 10 round mags while off duty. Despite there being no reference to magazine capacity in LEOSA, the political pant shitting lives on with some.

Must be nice to be more equal than the other animals.

I agree with the sentiment, but don't blame the cops for that. They don't write the law. Most of the ones I know would agree that there should be nation wide reciprocity for CC that includes all citizens who are legal gun owners.

 

[jasons]

I agree with the sentiment, but don't blame the cops for that. They don't write the law. Most of the ones I know would agree that there should be nation wide reciprocity for CC that includes all citizens who are legal gun owners.

Oh, I'm not. I'd do it too....