Confirmed instances of .pdf/paper FA-10 form rejection by MA FRB

[el duderino]

So sxqawz1 already posted the form, but this is from the "rejection letter" part, page 1:


"General Instructions:

3. Mail the ORIGINAL form to the FRB at the addressor the FA-10 form. DO NOT mail photocopies or duplicates of this form. Copies of FA-10 forms will not be recorded and will be returned to the sender."

(All emphasis is exactly as it appears in the form.)

Terrific.

Meaning they want what you filled in with pen to be original, not copied, so photocopying the blank form might pass..

 

[JimR]

Not sure but I just did one and got the same password protected PDF at the end. I'm going to call tomorrow to see if they know what it is.

I bought a S&W1911 from a NES member last night. We encountered the same print issue. It is not an Adobe probelm. Adobe doesn't ask you for a password.

 

[Racenet]

Meaning they want what you filled in with pen to be original, not copied, so photocopying the blank form might pass..

How the hell you you figure that? It's no wonder you all are having so many problems. You cause them yourself.

Granted, the whole situation sucks to begin with But, come on, think.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I bought a S&W1911 from a NES member last night. We encountered the same print issue. It is not an Adobe problem. Adobe doesn't ask you for a password.

I was VERY suspicious of that too, but that is what Jason told me. Jason admitted that he's not a "computer person" and I've never even looked at the e-FA-10 system, so I couldn't dispute him with any facts. As I told Jason, my computer is so locked down, there is no way that I'd be able to use his system w/o knowing every pop-up URL that would come up so I could enable those. NO WAY I am disabling all my security just to do one of his forms!

 

[exo]

This is untenable. Where has GOAL been on this?

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is untenable. Where has GOAL been on this?

Do some reading on the GOAL website and/or here. They complained about it and asked questions.

They never got any answers and never will get them either.

Nothing GOAL can do about it. If they could get a law changed, that would be great, but not likely to happen in MA!

 

[gulfmp]

I did a two for one trade with another NES member a few weeks ago. All three transactions were completed in ink on a printed color copy of the pdf from GOAL's web site.

About 7-10 days later my two transactions were kicked back with the same letter others have been getting. The other party did not have his kicked back even though it is exactly the same as mine.

I just used the two FA10's that they sent me to send it back to the state. I didn't change any information on it, even though the transaction was now over the seven days. I have not heard another word about it.

 

[shanef]

The adobe reader is on the client machine... Try saving on a jump drive and opening on another machine. I have not tried an electronic fa-10 as yet but you can also do screen print/captures as well for documentation....

 

[glide]

Do some reading on the GOAL website and/or here. They complained about it and asked questions.

They never got any answers and never will get them either.

Nothing GOAL can do about it. If they could get a law changed, that would be great, but not likely to happen in MA!

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section128A

such resident reports within seven days, in writing to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services on forms furnished by said executive director, the names and addresses of the seller and the purchaser of any such large capacity feeding device, firearm, rifle or shotgun, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle or shotgun, including its designation as a large capacity weapon, if applicable, the calibre, make and serial number and the purchaser’s license to carry firearms number, permit to purchase number and identifying number of such documentation as is used to establish exempt person status in the case of a firearm or the purchaser’s license to carry number or firearm identification card number or said document identity number, in the case of a rifle or shotgun.

The law? I'm pretty sure they are ignoring it at this point.

"On the internet" is not a substitute for "In writing"

 

[drgrant]

The law? I'm pretty sure they are ignoring it at this point.

"On the internet" is not a substitute for "In writing"

Since there is no penalty in the law for the state ignoring it, they get to do whatever they want.

Even if by some miracle you got to drag Guida to court, he's going to testify that they still have paper forms available (distributed through MA police departments) and are still providing them. The fact that they are doing a relatively crappy job of providing those forms will likely be ignored.

What I don't like is these PDs telling people that "the state has gotten rid of the form and you must use E-FA-10." I think it is unlikely that the PDs are coming up with this lie on their own, and I think it is someone working for Guida or himself that is telling the PDs this BS.

This raises an obvious question- is there a legal tenet for a defense that can be used by someone, when the state imposes a requirement, and the state's willfull inaction makes it impossible for the citizen to comply with the law?

-Mike

 

[namedpipes]

. . . Nothing GOAL can do about it. If they could get a law changed, that would be great, but not likely to happen in MA!

I understand they have a difficult mission, but isn't that pretty much what they are SUPPOSED to be trying to do?

Their website lacks a clear mission statement (which is possibly contributory to their current internal strife) but it does specifically talk about legislative lobbying.

 

[JimR]

I was VERY suspicious of that too, but that is what Jason told me. Jason admitted that he's not a "computer person" and I've never even looked at the e-FA-10 system, so I couldn't dispute him with any facts. As I told Jason, my computer is so locked down, there is no way that I'd be able to use his system w/o knowing every pop-up URL that would come up so I could enable those. NO WAY I am disabling all my security just to do one of his forms!

Len, We didn't see any mesage of a pop up that needed to be opened or any other messages. The page just said please insert passord into the password section below or something very similar to that. It's a joke if you ask me. Kind of like Let's make this as hard as possible to work correctly. Hell, maybe they haven't even proved the system yet. It is quite obvious that there is a blip in the program.

 

[Alchemist17]

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section128A

The law? I'm pretty sure they are ignoring it at this point.

The interesting thing to me is that there's no requirement in Section 128B with regards to providing the information on a form provided by the executive director:

Section 128B. Any resident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle or shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than from a licensee under section one hundred and twenty-two or a person authorized to sell firearms under section one hundred and twenty-eight A, and any nonresident of the commonwealth who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall for the first offense be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000 and for any subsequent offense by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.

 

[exo]

128A has something I hadn't noticed before either...

and provided, further, that such resident reports within seven days, in writing to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services on forms furnished by said executive director, the names and addresses of the seller and the purchaser of any such large capacity feeding device, firearm, rifle or shotgun, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle or shotgun, including its designation as a large capacity weapon, if applicable, the calibre, make and serial number and the purchaser’s license to carry firearms number, permit to purchase number and identifying number of such documentation as is used to establish exempt person status in the case of a firearm or the purchaser’s license to carry number or firearm identification card number or said document identity number, in the case of a rifle or shotgun.

Umm... we have to report transfers of high cap magazines?

 

[JimR]

128A has something I hadn't noticed before either...



Umm... we have to report transfers of high cap magazines?

Just wonderful.

 

[Gibbs]

128A has something I hadn't noticed before either...



Umm... we have to report transfers of high cap magazines?

Ho.

Ly.

Crap.

And, just suppose it's, oh, say, an AR mag with no markings? What would one fill in all those many little boxes on the form with?

 

[namedpipes]

. . . And, just suppose it's, oh, say, an AR mag with no markings? What would one fill in all those many little boxes on the form with?

Send it in blank.

 

[exo]

I'm hoping somebody with at least a passing understanding of lawyerese can tell me that that part of 128A doesn't actually apply.

 

[exo]

Ho.

Ly.

Crap.

And, just suppose it's, oh, say, an AR mag with no markings? What would one fill in all those many little boxes on the form with?

Just write in "ULTRA CAPACITY KILLY DEATH", they'll understand.

Edit:
128A doesn't list any penalties, 128B doesn't list a penalty for failing to report transfers of large capacity feeding devices...

 

[VAA]

I've downloaded the latest Adobe reader onto my Mac but still got the password protected file at the end on the transfer. I saved the password protected file and was then able to open it without any issues using Adobe reader.

 

[exo]

I've downloaded the latest Adobe reader onto my Mac but still got the password protected file at the end on the transfer. I saved the password protected file and was then able to open it without any issues using Adobe reader.

That's very strange.

 

[ToddDubya]

What are the odds of there ever being iPhone and Android apps for it? It could easily include e-mail addresses for both the buyer and seller so everyone gets a copy.

Don't bother responding. It's a rhetorical question.

 

[VAA]

That's very strange.

I thought so too. Maybe it's a browser issue with safari? I'm expecting another rejected fa-10 so I'll try firefox when I do that one.

 

[Len-2A Training]

What are the odds of there ever being iPhone and Android apps for it? It could easily include e-mail addresses for both the buyer and seller so everyone gets a copy.

Don't bother responding. It's a rhetorical question.

You bring up an excellent point, putting aside the mobile apps questions . . .

There are some reasons why I do not think this will ever happen.

- Primarily the state does NOT care if WE have records of our transactions. They ONLY CARE about the State having a record of our ownership!!!

- They marked the new hard-copy form "not a bill of sale" and from my discussion with Jason, it seems that his opinion is that if we want evidence of a transfer, WE should create our own Bill of Sale for the purpose!

- They had the e-FA-10 system developed with grant money. I do not believe that they have the expertise in-house to do something like this, and they certainly have no budget to do so either. From what Jason told me, his department had 9 employees 4 years ago and he's now down to 4!

Now that said, I really, really like your idea!

When I <online> pay my utility bills, RE taxes, auto excise tax, charge-card bills, etc. I automatically receive a "receipt" via Email.

Technology-wise, there is no reason in the world that the e-FA-10 form couldn't result in Emailing a copy to both parties and this would solve a lot of our issues! I just never see it happening. Too bad they never asked for gun owner input prior to implementing the system. It would have been a minor modification to code if done at the same time the system was being developed.

 

[Coyote33]

...- Primarily the state does NOT care if WE have records of our transactions. They ONLY CARE about the State having a record of our ownership!!!

Why?

They marked the new hard-copy form "not a bill of sale" and from my discussion with Jason, it seems that his opinion is that if we want evidence of a transfer, WE should create our own Bill of Sale for the purpose!

Why would we want this?

They had the e-FA-10 system developed with grant money. I do not believe that they have the expertise in-house to do something like this, and they certainly have no budget to do so either. From what Jason told me, his department had 9 employees 4 years ago and he's now down to 4!

Awwww. Let's throw a pity party! You know, they could just do .pdf forms to accomplish what they want. Better still, they could just do away with it entirely. The ball is in their court.

Technology-wise, there is no reason in the world that the e-FA-10 form couldn't result in Emailing a copy to both parties and this would solve a lot of our issues! I just never see it happening. Too bad they never asked for gun owner input prior to implementing the system. It would have been a minor modification to code if done at the same time the system was being developed.

Again, they could redo it right, or just get rid of it completely. If a law needs to get changed, they should get it changed. The state is broke.

 

[terraformer]

You bring up an excellent point, putting aside the mobile apps questions . . .

There are some reasons why I do not think this will ever happen.

- Primarily the state does NOT care if WE have records of our transactions. They ONLY CARE about the State having a record of our ownership!!!

- They marked the new hard-copy form "not a bill of sale" and from my discussion with Jason, it seems that his opinion is that if we want evidence of a transfer, WE should create our own Bill of Sale for the purpose!

- They had the e-FA-10 system developed with grant money. I do not believe that they have the expertise in-house to do something like this, and they certainly have no budget to do so either. From what Jason told me, his department had 9 employees 4 years ago and he's now down to 4!

Now that said, I really, really like your idea!

When I <online> pay my utility bills, RE taxes, auto excise tax, charge-card bills, etc. I automatically receive a "receipt" via Email.

Technology-wise, there is no reason in the world that the e-FA-10 form couldn't result in Emailing a copy to both parties and this would solve a lot of our issues! I just never see it happening. Too bad they never asked for gun owner input prior to implementing the system. It would have been a minor modification to code if done at the same time the system was being developed.

Where did the grant money come from? Also, how about us needing a copy of the FA-10 to prove we filed it when the basement floods again and destroys their records again? It's not like they haven't lost all of the blue cards...

 

[JimR]

I've downloaded the latest Adobe reader onto my Mac but still got the password protected file at the end on the transfer. I saved the password protected file and was then able to open it without any issues using Adobe reader.

Sounds like they need a new programer to fix this flaw in their system.

 

[Coyote33]

That's right. Follow the money. Stop the money to stop the illegal breaking of our Constitutional rights.

 

[JimR]

That's right. Follow the money. Stop the money to stop the illegal breaking of our Constitutional rights.

100% agreement there.

 

[Independence Arms]

I did my first EFA10 on saturday. Everything went smooth as silk. Needed my PIN number, and buyer/seller LTC inf, and weapon info. Printed out with no problem. Had the buyer and myself sign and date, scanned into a folder on my computer, and done. Whole thing took less than 10 min.

This was all done at my house, so I can understand this sucking during a parking lot transaction!