Confirmed instances of .pdf/paper FA-10 form rejection by MA FRB

haven't read all 45 pages...can only offer that I sold a rifle last fall, downloaded the form and printed it out...filled it out correctly and submitted it with all info...and received a letter back telling me that I hadnt filled out the "correct" FA-10...[angry]...HTF are law abiding citizens supposed to comply with BS? I guess I have to give them credit for including a "correct" FA-10 for my use...for the record?- It looked for all intents and purposes like the one I sent originally...
 
mbullism said:
haven't read all 45 pages...can only offer that I sold a rifle last fall, downloaded the form and printed it out...filled it out correctly and submitted it with all info...and received a letter back telling me that I hadnt filled out the "correct" FA-10...[angry]...HTF are law abiding citizens supposed to comply with BS? I guess I have to give them credit for including a "correct" FA-10 for my use...for the record?- It looked for all intents and purposes like the one I sent originally...
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the downloadable pdf is only a work sheet to then enter the information info the E-FA-10 system
 
perry1386 said:
the downloadable pdf is only a work sheet to then enter the information info the E-FA-10 system
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I guess my point was that they looked for all purposes the same... it was their little way of slapping me on the wrist, since in the end the information was the same. If we are talking about the pdf (I believe I downloaded it from the GOAL website) if it's a worksheet, it should say "worksheet". I recall no reference to E-FA-10... it just seems petty.
 
perry1386 said:
the downloadable pdf is only a work sheet to then enter the information info the E-FA-10 system
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Who told you that? [laugh]

No. The FRB had the original three part forms printed by a vendor. The FRB tried to change vendors and the vendor claimed copyright on the form. Unable to provide ANY forms, the FRB endorsed the "PDF" form and began distributing it via their website and police stations.

Meanwhile somebody's kid nephew wrote the eFA-10 web site for them and it allows the FRB not to bother with the actual work of scanning the documents.

Since then they've secured a new vendor and can again provide the standard paper forms mandated by MGL, but they don't wanna, so they've resorted to lying about distributing forms to police departments and no longer give them directly to the People at all.

The PDF version DOES meet the criteria specified by law. Ironically, the eFA-10 site does not...

It was never intended as a worksheet.

Disclaimer: Most of the above is supposition and pettifoggery or conclusions drawn by me based on apparent fact.
 
RE: People who mention that the form has to be submitted "in writing."

What in the name of all that's holy makes people continue to say this? In what universe is it not "in writing" because it's electronically sent? This post is "in writing" unless I'm using pictures to communicate my ideas.

I think this whole system is bogus, like everyone else here. But the idea that an eFA10 doesn't comply with legal requirements because it's not "in writing" is silly. If the verbiage was "on paper" it would be a different story, but that's not what it says.
 
That Guy said:
RE: People who mention that the form has to be submitted "in writing."

What in the name of all that's holy makes people continue to say this? In what universe is it not "in writing" because it's electronically sent? This post is "in writing" unless I'm using pictures to communicate my ideas.

I think this whole system is bogus, like everyone else here. But the idea that an eFA10 doesn't comply with legal requirements because it's not "in writing" is silly. If the verbiage was "on paper" it would be a different story, but that's not what it says.
Click to expand...

I don't have a computer and wouldn't know how to use it if I did. Or perhaps I'm too poor to own one and too smelly to be allowed into a public library. Or they wouldn't give me a library card because I'm homeless and don't have a place for them to send the card to.

My rights should be revoked?
 
namedpipes said:
I don't have a computer and wouldn't know how to use it if I did. Or perhaps I'm too poor to own one and too smelly to be allowed into a public library. Or they wouldn't give me a library card because I'm homeless and don't have a place for them to send the card to.

My rights should be revoked?
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That answers an entirely different question than the one I asked. That doesn't address whether or not an eFA10 is "in writing" in any way.
 
Well, if you can provide a cite to an MGL, or case law in an MA court defining writing, that would go a long way. I haven't found one yet. MGL C140 S121 purports to contain the definitions for S122-S131P, and doesn't mention it. I still regard this as an open question, as applying simple logic to MGLs is usually a waste of time.

I did find some other states had either specifically added laws to generally include electronic communication as written notice, and include electronic communication to specific sections of law, but was unable to locate a similar statute for MA. No big surprise that law lags technology - but that doesn't mean I'm willing to risk jail time for it.
 
KMM696 said:
I did find some other states had either specifically added laws to generally include electronic communication as written notice, and include electronic communication to specific sections of law, but was unable to locate a similar statute for MA. No big surprise that law lags technology - but that doesn't mean I'm willing to risk jail time for it.
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MA has one too. It's written really poorly and wouldn't be easy to find. But it's there. I have seen it.
 
"written really poorly" and "Mass. General Law" seem to go together like peanut butter and jelly. [thinking]

If you stumble across it again and think of it, I'd like to see the cite. But don't go looking just for me - better ways to spend your time!
 
I mailed in four completed FA-10 forms last Tuesday. Two were on the numbered 3-part carbon paper, the other two were ones that I filled out a printed FA-10 PDF, non numbered.

I received an envelope today from the EOPS / CJIS containing one of my non numbered print out FA-10s. (Nothing else in the envelope)

It was nice of them to mail it back to me for my records after they scanned it into their system, but what about the other 3? I need those for my records too!
 
SJan said:
Whats so funny, Tom?

I am expecting to see 3 more envelopes, each with 1 of my FA10 copies. Government inefficiency at its finest I guess....
Click to expand...

Oh, I thought that post was sarcasm. Sorry man. I gotta check my meter.

I was thinking you were saying that you have a receipt acknowledging they received the FA10, and you weren't going to re send it. Nevermind.
 
ntomsw said:
Oh, I thought that post was sarcasm. Sorry man. I gotta check my meter.

I was thinking you were saying that you have a receipt acknowledging they received the FA10, and you weren't going to re send it. Nevermind.
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I read it the same...the law requires you send it. They had to have received it in order to send it back. Instant receipt.
 
namedpipes said:
Why would he resend it? He wasn't instructed to. His assumption was a reasonable one.
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I'm still confused...

What I was saying, and am still saying is **** MA. Once you send in the FA10, and they reject it and send it back because you used a PDF form, screw them. That is your receipt that you sent it in, and they can take a flying shit.

What am I missing?
 
ntomsw said:
I'm still confused...

What I was saying, and am still saying is **** MA. Once you send in the FA10, and they reject it and send it back because you used a PDF form, screw them. That is your receipt that you sent it in, and they can take a flying shit.

What am I missing?
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I agree. If they didn't send an accompanying letter that requests re-submission, along with the returned pdf.,then I say your good to go.
 
even if they request re-submission, you followed the MGLs when you sent in the PDF. to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the MGLs does it say a serialized copy, or their stupid system. if i'm wrong someone please correct me.
 
atilla said:
even if they request re-submission, you followed the MGLs when you sent in the PDF. to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the MGLs does it say a serialized copy, or their stupid system. if i'm wrong someone please correct me.
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It all depends on how a court would interpret "furnished".
 
exodious said:
Yeah, but this sort of hinges on whether they can "unfurnish" them, no? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I agree that these are "furnished" forms.
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Since the PDF is essentially identical to the currently furnished form, IMO (IANAL) a judge would find that you did in fact comply with the law. It is at least in the realm of possibility.

That would set a precedent the FRB does NOT want set.

Because of the "chance" of setting that precedent, I think the FRB would not actually prosecute it.

I could also be tragically wrong. Nobody should take any of the above as legal advice.
 
yeah I just got one returned using a .pdf mailed in....7 days extension to either file electronically, or get a real FA`10 at the police station. Odd thing, I keep getting error messages when I file it online. hope I can find a real FA10 somewhere
 
SJan said:
Anyone ever bother to mail a FA-10 by certified mail or with signature conformation?
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Since using the PDF form gets you a letter back, no need to spend the money. They supply delivery confirmation automatically :). Yes, I complied with the law, here is proof.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
LenS;358why5 said:
WHY??

Not required and a huge waste of money with no benefit!
Click to expand...

Crackpot knows why, and makes a great point, a point that we discussed earlier in this thread.

CrackPot said:
Since using the PDF form gets you a letter back, no need to spend the money. They supply delivery confirmation automatically :). Yes, I complied with the law, here is proof.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...
 
I still have a real paper form like they used to send out upon request. Can I submit that if I buy something?
 
Emoto said:
I still have a real paper form like they used to send out upon request. Can I submit that if I buy something?
Click to expand...

Of course. Like you I still have some of those original 3-part forms and use them whenever I buy or sell something . . . until they are gone!
 

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