Concerned resident aims to form armed militia to patrol Stockton

[Reptile]

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090407/A_NEWS/904070327/-1/rss02

STOCKTON - A retired truck driver and Vietnam War veteran said Monday that he is forming an armed militia - mostly men with rifles and armbands, four to a car - to patrol Stockton this summer, when at least 43 police officers are to be laid off.

Alan Pettet, 66, said he has recruited 18 men, most of whom are ex-military. He said the militia will train at a firing range and "activate" if the city lays off any officer, as it intends by July 1.

The likelihood of an armed militia materializing is uncertain - there are legal concerns, and posturing to influence City Hall is not uncommon - but for a neighborhood activist even to advance such a proposal was indicative of frustration about Stockton's awful budget forecast. The City Council is expected by July 1, the start of fiscal 2009-10, to order police layoffs and spending reductions citywide to balance a general fund budget that is otherwise expected to be $31million in deficit by June 2010.

Pettet, a midtown neighborhood activist who has a Desert Eagle pistol, said militiamen will detain suspected criminals and call police to arrest them. They will wear armbands and will patrol in a car marked by a magnetic sign, he said.

"It's going to be 'Stockton Armed Militia,'" Pettet said. "'SAM' for short."

Neither the Police Department nor the city administration was impressed.

"We are not at the point that we need to have armed militias patrolling Stockton," Vice Mayor Kathy Miller said.

Mayor Ann Johnston said, "Oh, no no no no, no no no. ... We don't want armed citizens out there who are not trained."

That it is illegal in most circumstances in California to carry a loaded firearm in one's car did not disturb Pettet.

"If you look under the Constitution, a militia can be formed," he said. "Watch and see. Who's going to stop us?"

Attorney and anti-blight activist Ron Stein, who is a friend of Pettet's and has been advising him, said the militia will conform to state law, perhaps by having members seek permits to carry concealed handguns.

"You've got to do what you've got to do," Stein said.

Pettet said the militia will bill the city $350 per hour for its services. City Attorney Ren Nosky said he knew of no legal basis requiring the city to pay such a bill.

Nosky had other reservations, too.

"I just don't know if that's in the best interest of these gentlemen, from a safety perspective," he said. "We have a concern about the level of training that these gentlemen have, if any, especially in light of the firearms that they say they're going to be carrying."

Police encourage people to report crimes and form Neighborhood Watch groups, said Officer Pete Smith, a department spokesman. To form a militia is "taking it to another level," he said.

"It's ill advised," he said.

Stockton's violent crime rate is among the highest in the state. Stein and Pettet are critical of a budget proposal by City Manager Gordon Palmer that would require laying off at least 43 of the city's 403 police officers.

"We've got to protect ourselves," Stein said. "We are in the wild, wild West when you take people who are supposed to protect us off the street."

The telephone number Pettet is using for the militia is that of midtown's Safe Neighborhood Action Group, a group formed in the 1990s.

"You've reached the Safe Neighborhood Action Group," a recording at that number said. "Helping to protect Stockton citizens from their mayor and City Council."

 

[NOVA]

I approve, good luck to them

 

[GSG]

Good idea, but it'd be better if they weren't proposing breaking the law and forcing the city to pay them for something they don't want.

 

[z0mbi]

I agree. They'd get a lot more sympathy from me if they weren't extorting the city for money.

 

[MasterShinken]

I am intruieged to see what comes of this. I like the idea, and find it a bit funny that the cops are most scared of loosing the monopoly on protection also I find the quote "I just don't know if that's in the best interest of these gentlemen, from a safety perspective". Not that a person has the right to choose for themselves anymore

 

[JMody]

I would sign up in a heart beat if I lived out there.

I don't think they really expect the city to pay. They are just trying to make a point is my guess.

Personally I hope they bag a sh!t load of D-Bags.

-Also I love how they are worried about the training this militia has. The guy said most of S.A.M. is ex-military. My guess is they will have some knowledge about tactics. I am sure it's not a bunch of WWII vets running around.

 

[z0mbi]

Perhaps he meant POLICE training. Like how to deal with people without violating their rights and all that tricky jazz. I don't know, but I would imagine police training is a whole lot different from military training.

 

[GSG]

I would imagine police training is a whole lot different from military training.

I doubt it. Both have uniforms, guns, and are paid for by taxpayers. Clearly they're the same thing.

 

[JMody]

Without a doubt it is.

The way I took the wording was they were concerned about the safety of the people in the militia.

 

[Eta-Carinae]

asking for trouble. hope they find it. Stockton likes going for the death penalty.

These guys are begging for being on the wrong end of a justifiable quadruple homicide and I will laugh my ass off when it happens.

Look at how we would want law enforcement to see this from "our" perspective.

Say Worcester has a crazy spike in its crime wave, above and beyond what it's having. Say budget cuts result in a reduction of emergency services. Now some group decides that Worcester PD must be augmented by private citizens going beyond the rules of self defense and castle doctrine, into the realm of self appointed peace officers.

Ok.

Now they roll up on a NES member cookout to kick off a take-back-the-night block party. Not liking the Worcester municiple government, we didn't bother creating an official neighborhood watch group to get the free street sign, so we're not on their list of approved neighborhood watch organizations. How would we react to a car load of non-uniformed but arm band brandishing self-appointed militia members driving up and asking us what we're doing. Being more aware of such things, we notice these guys are all packing or at least are wearing bulky clothing in the middle of summer.

I'm from that region of California. Remember that that entire region of California is much more ethnically mixed than even the most urban areas of New England. Stockton is where Patrick Purdy pulled off his knock-off-AK-47 shooting rampage of a grade school. Now, while he was certainly a deeply disturbed individual with a history of multiple convictions, suicide attempts, and ethnic hatred, Stockton still suffers from a divide exemplified by Purdy's targetting of south asian ethnicity children during his shooting rampage.

Any group of minorities is going to react particularily aggressively to a carload of arm-band-wearing men engaged in a self-appointed enforcement of the peace.

We know that we have no business seeking out public disturbances to enforce the peace. Our liberty and responsibility extends to and ends at the defense of our self and others in the face of direct imminent threat. When we seek out that threat, we cross the line.

Now lets return to my NES cookout scenario. Say an angry neighbor comes over and engages in aggitated but non-threatening argument over some deluded slight, but won't leave. We call the police with a legitimate tresspass complaint. Up roll the militia boys. They see a crowd in an argument with an individual and decide to enforce order. The angry neighbor, faced with a crowd he knows and a new crowd he doesn't know, draws a weapon. The militia boys draw weapons to enforce the peace. Now we're justified. Now we have the protections of the rule of law behind us.

Do we think that someone in Texas would be right if they say "How dare those ma**h***s pull guns on that citizens militia!"

 

[JMody]

I don't think they would be dealing with stuff like that.

If it is something like that then they wouldn't be right.

I would think they would be out looking for things more like people breaking into homes, cars, committing robberies and stuff of that nature.

 

[Kicker96FS]

So............. If we start one in Haverhill, we could have signs on the car door that would read "HAM" (an offshoot of "pig")
Not to diss any LEO's but you have to admit, it is funny.

 

[doobie]

I've been calling for us to do this in Manchester....

 

[Palladin]

"who's going to stop us?"


I like that.

 

[FalArAk]

Stockton is a shithole.

 

[Martlet]

We know that we have no business seeking out public disturbances to enforce the peace. Our liberty and responsibility extends to and ends at the defense of our self and others in the face of direct imminent threat. When we seek out that threat, we cross the line.

I semi-agreed with much of what you said, up until this. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "public disturbances" as well. I have a responsibility to my community. If I see someone's rights being violated, I have a responsibility to intervene. This doesn't mean I think armed bands of roaming vigilantes are a great idea. I'm not necessarily opposed to them, either. It does mean, however, that if more people had their attitude instead of yours, a police layoff would be a good thing, not a bad.

 

[Mr. Rogers]

Homer Simpson taking on the role of SPD police chief anyone?

 

[FiremanBob]

If the little western towns had this kind of fortitude, they wouldn't have needed Clint Eastwood.

I don't know the Stockton situation, but based on the trends I've read about in many cities I'd say they are more premature than wrong - in a SHTF scenario this is what communities will have to do.

The citizens are the ultimate authority, and they delegate police powers to the government. If the government agency breaks down or is overwhelmed by the lawless, I say the people have the right to retract their delegation. It should be done by referendum so that the authorization is a decision of the voters, and the idea of billing the government is ridiculous. Remember, the government is merely the agent of the taxpayers, so billing the government means the same as billing ourselves.

 

[CRSIII]

If the little western towns had this kind of fortitude, they wouldn't have needed Clint Eastwood.

I don't know the Stockton situation, but based on the trends I've read about in many cities I'd say they are more premature than wrong - in a SHTF scenario this is what communities will have to do.

The citizens are the ultimate authority, and they delegate police powers to the government. If the government agency breaks down or is overwhelmed by the lawless, I say the people have the right to retract their delegation. It should be done by referendum so that the authorization is a decision of the voters, and the idea of billing the government is ridiculous. Remember, the government is merely the agent of the taxpayers, so billing the government means the same as billing ourselves.

Bob, you better watch out there buddy, you're making to much sense.

 

[Bob P]

I'm unhappy with the plan to bill the city but other then that the thing that strikes me most about this article is it's actually fairly POSITIVE.

Interesting indeed.

 

[SteelShooter]

I'm unhappy with the plan to bill the city but other then that the thing that strikes me most about this article is it's actually fairly POSITIVE.

Interesting indeed.

I think the billing part of it is to cover the legal term of a Militia, just a guess though.

 

[matt1956]

the money issue i think is wrong.

i dont believe they should seek funding from the city, that goes from militia to mercnenary IMO.

However, if they follow the Constitution, I don't see how the state can stop them, after all, A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. pretty much describes their intent.

 

[Zombieoutfitters]

Armed Militia

These guys are begging for being on the wrong end of a justifiable quadruple homicide and I will laugh my ass off when it happens.

....private citizens going beyond the rules of self defense and castle doctrine, into the realm of self appointed peace officers.

Any group of minorities is going to react particularily aggressively to a carload of arm-band-wearing men engaged in a self-appointed enforcement of the peace.

QUOTE]

Initially I say "hell yeah and where do I sign up?" Then I start thinking about how I would react if they rolled up on me.

Where do you draw the line between "right minded" folk trying to protect fellow citizens and "a bunch of guys with guns deciding what's right and wrong all of a sudden". It's a slippery slope especially given the nature of the job - heightened emotions and such.

I guess Police and militia are still under the same law as far as when shooting is justified...but I'de be damned if many localities would tolerate armed citizens rolling about LOOKING for bad guys...hell it's hard enough navigating the possibility of protecting your OWN life and avoid jail!

Good for them, man. I support them, but I hope they understand the big pile 'o poop they are stepping around in.​

 

[seanc]

Very interesting!

What are the ramifications if the town decided to deputize these people?
I would think a lot of the street crime of dealers on street corners might see a decrease by the presence of these guys.


What are the laws regarding a citizen's arrest?

 

[Gonzo]

Isn't this what the Mob is for?

 

[jcetto0351]

I doubt it. Both have uniforms, guns, and are paid for by taxpayers. Clearly they're the same thing.

The military's mission is to seek, close with, and destroy the enemy through firepower and manuever...

The Police have a mission of preserving the peace of a municipality with only as much violence of action as is needed....

I think that a militia should have TRAINING before they are let loose in my community so that we don't get a bunch of gun-ho idiots shooting up every "criminal" they see out at 3 AM....BUT.... with training if they can offer a cheaper price to Stockton than the price it costs to pay the cops they are laying off, maybe it isn't a bad idea... Capitalism at work

 

[ochmude]

The military's mission is to seek, close with, and destroy the enemy through firepower and manuever...

The Police have a mission of preserving the peace of a municipality with only as much violence of action as is needed....

I think that a militia should have TRAINING before they are let loose in my community so that we don't get a bunch of gun-ho idiots shooting up every "criminal" they see out at 3 AM....BUT.... with training if they can offer a cheaper price to Stockton than the price it costs to pay the cops they are laying off, maybe it isn't a bad idea... Capitalism at work

You forgot "...and to repel the enemy assault through fire and close combat" .

 

[ztargetshooter]

"Say Worcester has a crazy spike in its crime wave, above and beyond what it's having."

Cite your source. Most of the numbers look down to me.

http://www.ci.worcester.ma.us/cau/ncs/ncs.htm

 

[Eta-Carinae]

"Say Worcester has a crazy spike in its crime wave, above and beyond what it's having."

Cite your source. Most of the numbers look down to me.

http://www.ci.worcester.ma.us/cau/ncs/ncs.htm

That was a hypothetical bit of sarcasm, noting the Worcester mayor's insistence that the knife crime wave was justification for criminalizing the possession of a knife in the event of an arrest.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

I do like the idea, however like everyone else says the payment from the city doesn't sound all that smart. Especially since they fire police due to budget constraints. He might actually be able to force the government to confront the issue whether the 2nd amendment means what it was made for, for creating a militia. Not for duck hunting, target shooting, or home defense, but to defend us from our government if they get too out of control.