Concealed Carriers Rules of Engagement

[Mustad]

Has anyone compiled a good sets of guidlines of when it is OK to draw your weapon on someone in a public or private setting. How much restraint must you exercise. Legal ramifications and other considerations.

I know alot of it has to do with personal opinion and also your personal saftey vs. your personal liability. And depends on the situation.

I was hoping that there was some kind of guideline to when (In Massachusetts) It is appropriate to point a weapon or fire upon someone.

Are there any personal standards that any one here uses or would use if the situation arose?

 

[Danrk6]

You threaten me or my family in a way I feel our lives are in danger, you are getting shot more than once.

Edit: its a pretty easy list to manage.

 

[Spanz]

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/35965-massad-ayoobs-ten-commandments-cc.html

 

[jenlynn724]

when you intend on killng someone..not before..

 

[tele_mark]

When you're genuinely in fear of your life, let 'er rip.

 

[Hanwei]

Guidlines:

1) Do not draw your firearm unless you feel like your life (or other innocent lives) is in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death.

 

[ASHDUMP]

Every situation is different, but I've often thought how I would handle myself if someone was threatening me or someone close to me.

I guess it would all depend on weapon the person had and how close they were to me. If it was a knife and the dude/dudette was 10' away then I'd probably draw my gun and if he/she took another step towards me I'd shoot. If he ran away then I did my part and no one was killed. I have local police on speed dial as well and would call if the guy/gal ran away.

 

[SSShooter]

Every situation is different, but I've often thought how I would handle myself if someone was threatening me or someone close to me.

I guess it would all depend on weapon the person had and how close they were to me. If it was a knife and the dude/dudette was 10' away then I'd probably draw my gun and if he/she took another step towards me I'd shoot. If he ran away then I did my part and no one was killed. I have local police on speed dial as well and would call if the guy/gal ran away.

Are you familiar with the significance of 21 feet? 10 is very close if the bad guy has a knife.

 

[Jose]

Every situation is different, but I've often thought how I would handle myself if someone was threatening me or someone close to me.

I guess it would all depend on weapon the person had and how close they were to me. If it was a knife and the dude/dudette was 10' away then I'd probably draw my gun and if he/she took another step towards me I'd shoot. If he ran away then I did my part and no one was killed. I have local police on speed dial as well and would call if the guy/gal ran away.

While you have the right idea, some professional training would show you that ten feet is DAMNED close for an adversary with an edged weapon, and you are dangerously close to losing your advantage. The closer the knife-wielding assailant is, the more of an upper hand he has over you and your handgun.

Also, if you do not incorporate swift, agressive movement with your firepower when defending against a knife charge, you WILL get cut.

 

[cekim]

10 feet away with a knife? Don't bother trying to draw. You're already dead.

Stab to wound? It's the ethical thing to do...

 

[tele_mark]

Stab to wound? It's the ethical thing to do...

Using Less Lethal Knives

 

[Davidk]

Use of force, be it hands or weapon is fairly complicated. There's a lot that has to go into that split-second decision

You can find and extensive discussion on that topic on my DVD, Responsible use of Lethal Force.

www.armedresponsetraining.com

 

[center442]

Using Less Lethal Knives

"But, Your Honor, the assailant was armed with a black, high-capacity spork!"

 

[Jose]

10 feet away with a knife? Don't bother trying to draw. You're already dead.

Actually, if you react with movement before he starts to close, you have a better than even chance to prevail.

Go with the attitude that you are already defeated, and you are.

 

[twortley]

At the concealed carry class at Sig in August we did a drill where we stood back to back with our buddy - he was aimed down range on 7yd line. On the command "gun", "knife" etc he had to draw and fire, I had to run as fast as I could the opposite direction.

NOT ONE of the class failed to cover the 7yds well before the shooter got his handgun out of the holster. One guy GOT MORE THAN 30 FEET before the first shot was fired.

It was an eye opening exercise.

-Tim

 

[pdm]

At the concealed carry class at Sig in August we did a drill where we stood back to back with our buddy - he was aimed down range on 7yd line. On the command "gun", "knife" etc he had to draw and fire, I had to run as fast as I could the opposite direction.

NOT ONE of the class failed to cover the 7yds well before the shooter got his handgun out of the holster. One guy GOT MORE THAN 30 FEET before the first shot was fired.

It was an eye opening exercise.

-Tim

Tueller drill.

 

[Jose]

At the concealed carry class at Sig in August we did a drill where we stood back to back with our buddy - he was aimed down range on 7yd line. On the command "gun", "knife" etc he had to draw and fire, I had to run as fast as I could the opposite direction.

NOT ONE of the class failed to cover the 7yds well before the shooter got his handgun out of the holster. One guy GOT MORE THAN 30 FEET before the first shot was fired.

It was an eye opening exercise.

-Tim

Which shows the importance of moving while drawing and shooting.

Stand and deliver is a sure way to get cut or shot.

 

[twortley]

Followup - you would think that my decision to carry, my perception of the level of fear/risk aversion would go down, exactly the opposite. I see now that getting myself into a position where I have to protect myself (a) I've already failed my mission, and (b) its going to get very up close and personal.

Look at this force-on-force video, its by TacticalResponse/Yaeger, YMMV

 

[twortley]

I understand the concept in my head, but we're talking 1.5+ seconds here, trying to draw from a concealed IWB holster under a Sweater and Jacket.

Maybe my approach should be to run away like hell anyway

Which shows the importance of moving while drawing and shooting.

Stand and deliver is a sure way to get cut or shot.

 

[jhblaze1]

when you intend on [STRIKE]killng[/STRIKE] stopping someone..not before..

fixed

 

[theGringo]

"But, Your Honor, the assailant was armed with a black, high-capacity spork!"

You laugh, but obviously you have never faced down a man armed ... with a spork!

Spork assault nets man prison
1 YEAR: Victim was stabbed with hybrid fork-spoon utensil.

Anchorage Daily News

(10/17/08 01:54:55)
A man who stabbed another man with a spork, a combination fork and spoon, earlier this year in what police said was an attempted robbery was sentenced Thursday to a year in prison for felony assault.

Peter Albert, 52, was originally charged with armed robbery for attempting to steal a man's watch at the intersection of 11th Avenue and Turpin Street in February. The watch wouldn't come off, so Albert ran away after stabbing the victim with what was first believed to be a knife.

In a plea agreement, the charge was reduced to felony assault with a deadly weapon, which comes with a year of prison time, according to prosecutor Gustav Olson.

It isn't that a spork is inherently deadly, Olson said. It's the manner in which it was used. Albert has already served most of his time.

Albert, who police said was intoxicated, left a number of Kentucky Fried Chicken products at the scene of the crime.

When police tracked him down a few blocks away, they found he was carrying a backpack that contained a small pocket knife, a KFC bag and several spoon-fork hybrids.

http://www.adn.com/crime/story/558820.html

 

[KMaurer]

I beg to differ with the opinion expressed by another trainer. Whether or not lethal force is justified is really quite simple. If you're concerned about the possibility of spending over a hundred thousand dollars in defense costs, and still possibly spending years in prison, then having your family lose their home in a civil suit for your actions, then the answer is clearly, "No, it's not time yet." When it's time, you won't be concerned about those possibilities. If the risk is sufficiently real, and the possible outcomes so horrendous that you'd happily undergo this sort of treatment by the system in order to avoid them, then and only then are you justified. Note that I'm not claiming that you will get treated this way by the system, just that concern or lack thereof about this sort of worst case alternative outcome makes an excellent yardstick to deciding when and if.

Ken

 

[Davidk]

In a split second you may have to consider any number if not all of the following;
threat level
type of attack
distance of attacker
Ability
Opportunity
Jeopardy
disparity of force
appropriate level of responding force
challenging
retreat
cover
concealment
proper movement
escalation
reenegagement


If you consider that "simple" you are a better man than I.

People have been shot because they were more scared of litigation than the threat--that's not a good indicator.

 

[tele_mark]

In a split second you may have to consider any number if not all of the following;
threat level
Ability
Opportunity
Jeopardy
disparity of force
appropriate level of responding force
challenging
retreat
cover
concealment
proper movement
escalation
reenegagement


If you consider that "simple" you are a better man than I.

People have been shot because they were more scared of litigation than the threat--that's not a good indicator.

There's a video on the web somewhere of a poor cop getting shot to death in his patrol car by a guy with an AR because he (the cop) was afraid of litigation.

 

[eisenhow]

Has anyone compiled a good sets of guidlines of when it is OK to draw your weapon on someone in a public or private setting. How much restraint must you exercise. Legal ramifications and other considerations.

I suggest you sign up for the next The Art of Concealed Carry. Darius Arbabi (Cross-X) and Jon Green (Jgreen) do a good job covering this topic.

 

[P-14]

I suggest you sign up for the next The Art of Concealed Carry. Darius Arbabi (Cross-X) and Jon Green (Jgreen) do a good job covering this topic.

I agree. This is MUST TAKE course if you live in the People's Republic. Understanding the "allowed" MA ROE is important and they definitely side against the "Castle Doctrine".

 

[soloman02]

This is how it works in NH:

II. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person when he reasonably believes that such other person:
(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against the actor or a third person;
(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;
(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or
(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against the actor within such actor's dwelling or its curtilage.
III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he knows that he and the third person can, with complete safety:
(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he is not required to retreat if he is within his dwelling or its curtilage and was not the initial aggressor; or
(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or
(c) Comply with a demand that he abstain from performing an act which he is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the actor has provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter.

http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-4.htm

The lawful justification may differ in Mass. Since I am not a Mass resident and refuse to patronize that state, I don't take the time to be informed of the laws in that state.

There are several threads here on NES that will point you in the right direction:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=81

 

[ASHDUMP]

Using Less Lethal Knives

Haha. Yeah I guess you all are right.... Actually, for me it would be more like 30'. That would give me enough time to use proper technique and make sure my sights are aligned properly.

 

[cekim]

Haha. Yeah I guess you all are right.... Actually, for me it would be more like 30'. That would give me enough time to use proper technique and make sure my sights are aligned properly.

Don't forget shooting gloves, eye and ear protection...

 

[nickortizzle1035]

in Massachusetts you have to be declared dead by a coroner before you can draw you weapon right??? I'd draw mine if me or someone else (even a complete stranger) is in immediate danger of death or serious injury.