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Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

Has there been any discussion about the limit of four per calendar year on private sales? I feel like these restrictions weaken the argument that private sales are a widespread option. Perhaps, due to emergency, the state wants to wave this limitation for this year.

I might also note, that due the complexities of Mass law, I know people who think they may want to transfer an off list handgun later this year, and are therefore unwilling to do any private sales of guns which are eligible to be transferred through a dealer. They would rather wait than use any of the limited private transfers.

Of course, the better argument may just be that many gun owners do not want to deal privately with someone they do not know, so all the smaller details may be irrelevant.
 
Can someone enlighten me how this works? This is federal court right? Does the judge for a district usually come from a lower court in that district?
Federal Court judges are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. This judge took up his position in 1986. He took senior status in 2015. Judges can take senior status when the reach 70 I think and have so many years of service. When they take senior status they keep getting paid, take on a lighter workload, but not always. More importantly, they free up their seat for a new judge. Woodlock's seat has been open since 2015 with no nominations, and it seems like he's still carrying a respectable case load.

BTW, the Trump administation doesn't seem to be in much of a hurry to file the two vacancies in Massachusetts.
 
Of course, the better argument may just be that many gun owners do not want to deal privately with someone they do not know, so all the smaller details may be irrelevant.

Bingo! If I know you or if someone I know and trust vouches for you I'll do a private transfer else it's an FFL on my dime. I'd rather pay the FFL than have it come back and haunt me later.
 
That is so money. It may be my new sig line.

I have to say, I think this is turning out to be one of the nastier cases that Comm2A has filed.
It does seem vindictive. What do you think the deal is there? It's really not a winning case for them, and it's not an issue that they should care that much about.

I know Woodlock's decision (if he rules in favor of Comm2a) won't be precedential, but if they appeal it to the First Circuit they will probably lose, because the decision will be so well-reasoned. And that ruling will be precedential. It just seems like a weird hill to die on. I think the Kung Flu is scrambling the left's brains.
 
It does seem vindictive. What do you think the deal is there? It's really not a winning case for them, and it's not an issue that they should care that much about.

Politicizing Public Health has been a priority to end run around civil liberties protections and the normal legislative process in favor of regulatory fiat. Why do you think they've been talking up 'Gun violence' as a disease, virus, epidemic, etc making everything a 'public health' issue. This case is a chance for the state's ability restrict the 2A during a "public health" emergency to be curtailed and the Governor/AG/Speaker's puppet masters don't like it.
 
Politicizing Public Health has been a priority to end run around civil liberties protections and the normal legislative process in favor of regulatory fiat. Why do you think they've been talking up 'Gun violence' as a disease, virus, epidemic, etc making everything a 'public health' issue. This case is a chance for the state's ability restrict the 2A during a "public health" emergency to be curtailed and the Governor/AG/Speaker's puppet masters don't like it.
That's true. Although I think, net-net, the pandemic is actually quite bad for the gun controllers in terms of their ability to use the term "public health crisis" about guns going forward. Imagine the counterattacks we can make now, just from an emotional standpoint? It's sort of like how making Nazi references is almost always a bad idea.
 
I was impressed/surprised by this as well. Hearing him interact with the defendants, I got the feeling he had a clear leaning. Especially with the persistence that they provide an explanation for why 2A was being targeted but not other commodities.

Then when he started addressing plaintiffs, he removed all doubt of simple bias from my mind. He was equally direct in demanding clear explanations where he felt things were vague or unclear. If he bases his decision solely on the level of burden, the private sale may be an issue. The handgun ammunition would potentially address this though, as just because you can acquire a handgun doesn't mean you can get ammunition for it. The real question is, does the state have a burden of proof/explanation? Can they simply say "because we said so" as long as private sales are allowed?

"Because we said so" has served them very well for a long time here.

I wonder, did the "No business relief funds for you " thing come up ?
If I had to look at this from a totally non biased position , that would stick out like a sore thumb as to if the true intent was to protect the public health or take advantage of a health issue to bone businesses you didn't like.
 
My two favorites:

You can shoot on your own property so range closures are OK and you can buy handgun ammo out of state so gunshop closure is OK.


Hindsight now, but it would have been great to bring up that we do not have the option to buy ammo online and most states are requiring a mandatory 14 day quarrantine when you arrive. That is certainly limiting options.
 
It does seem vindictive. What do you think the deal is there? It's really not a winning case for them, and it's not an issue that they should care that much about.

I know Woodlock's decision (if he rules in favor of Comm2a) won't be precedential, but if they appeal it to the First Circuit they will probably lose, because the decision will be so well-reasoned. And that ruling will be precedential. It just seems like a weird hill to die on. I think the Kung Flu is scrambling the left's brains.
I think it is a conditioned fear of being "the one" in the administration who was "soft on guns". This is a jihad against private gun ownership and everyone is afraid about being "the one" who was soft on guns. Even defending a losing case is protection against a "sided with the NRA" claim by the opposition at election time.
 
Hindsight now, but it would have been great to bring up that we do not have the option to buy ammo online and most states are requiring a mandatory 14 day quarrantine when you arrive. That is certainly limiting options.
The quarantine thing is a great idea. The online ammo thing would be a dangerous door to open, because while it's their legal position that that's the case, strictly speaking it's not true ;).

They don't seem to have any problem taking inconsistent positions, so you don't want to give them the opportunity to have their "civil investigator" start calling online vendors and asking if they'll ship to the 02169 zip code or something, getting a yes from the clueless clerk that answers the phone, and filing an affidavit claiming that ACKSHUALLY, you can buy ammo online in MA. Though that might open the door to some kind of estoppel claim, and it would probably piss off the judge, it could give the First Circus the ammo they need to tank the case on appeal.
 
The quarantine thing is a great idea. The online ammo thing would be a dangerous door to open, because while it's their legal position that that's the case, strictly speaking it's not true ;).

They don't seem to have any problem taking inconsistent positions, so you don't want to give them the opportunity to have their "civil investigator" start calling online vendors and asking if they'll ship to the 02169 zip code or something, getting a yes from the clueless clerk that answers the phone, and filing an affidavit claiming that ACKSHUALLY, you can buy ammo online in MA. Though that might open the door to some kind of estoppel claim, and it would probably piss off the judge, it could give the First Circus the ammo they need to tank the case on appeal.


Ahhhh, stragedy

 
Grants motion for leave to file and denies motion to strike affidavit. So...is that good or bad?
Neither matters. What matters is the judge's request for further submissions, including a "proposed form of order". Proposed form of order = tell me what I should order the state to do if I rule for the plaintiffs.

I wonder how much it costs to get a transcript... the transcript from today would be priceless.
 
I think it is a conditioned fear of being "the one" in the administration who was "soft on guns". This is a jihad against private gun ownership and everyone is afraid about being "the one" who was soft on guns. Even defending a losing case is protection against a "sided with the NRA" claim by the opposition at election time.

This is exactly what it is and it needs to be treated as such. It will never ever stop until they take always ALL the guns and the faster ALL gun owners come to that realization the better.

Some how we need to get this message out.


Bob
 
The quarantine thing is a great idea. The online ammo thing would be a dangerous door to open, because while it's their legal position that that's the case, strictly speaking it's not true ;).

They don't seem to have any problem taking inconsistent positions, so you don't want to give them the opportunity to have their "civil investigator" start calling online vendors and asking if they'll ship to the 02169 zip code or something, getting a yes from the clueless clerk that answers the phone, and filing an affidavit claiming that ACKSHUALLY, you can buy ammo online in MA. Though that might open the door to some kind of estoppel claim, and it would probably piss off the judge, it could give the First Circus the ammo they need to tank the case on appeal.
Does anyone hold an actual copy of one of her threat letters to online vendors ?
That would shut the door on that nonsense .
 
Hindsight now, but it would have been great to bring up that we do not have the option to buy ammo online and most states are requiring a mandatory 14 day quarrantine when you arrive. That is certainly limiting options.
The quarantine thing is a great idea. The online ammo thing would be a dangerous door to open, because while it's their legal position that that's the case, strictly speaking it's not true ;).
I don't think that dog is gonna hunt. Vendors do ship ammo to Massachusetts. The AG knows it an allows it. Vendors who don't ship do so out of policy driven by the AG's warning. Bottom line is that the AG hasn't not bothered a single vendor who has taken the time to verify that a Massachusetts customer has a valid license. The vendors who do not do this, do so as a matter of policy. We we went down that route, that's exactly what the AG would argue.
So on Thursday, if Woodlock grants the TRO, I bet we have about 3 hours to run to the gun store and buy something before another higher court shuts the store down again.
Probably.
I wonder how much it costs to get a transcript... the transcript from today would be priceless.
We're looking into getting a copy. From past experience, it district court transcripts take a long time.
 
Law360 covering the case. Full article behind a paywall but the lede is great:

A Massachusetts federal judge on Monday laid into attorneys for Gov. Charlie Baker for offering "concerted silence" about why the state closed gun stores during the COVID-19 outbreak while allowing liquor stores...
 
Law360 (May 4, 2020, 7:57 PM EDT) -- A Massachusetts federal judge on Monday laid into attorneys for Gov. Charlie Baker for offering "concerted silence" about why the state closed gun stores during the COVID-19 outbreak while allowing liquor stores and other retailers without constitutional underpinnings to remain open.

During a three-hour hearing, U.S. District Judge Douglas P. Woodlock repeatedly pressed government attorneys for the state's rationale and asked them to work with retailers challenging the closures to draft a plan on how the stores could safely reopen in case he decides the Second Amendment demands it.

Defending Baker, Assistant Attorney General Julia Kobick said bold moves were needed to stop the virus in its tracks and save lives, and argued the burden on the Second Amendment is light because citizens can still acquire guns through private sales and buy ammunition at Walmart.

"In times of crisis, the government is entitled to draw lines and is entitled to deference in how it draws lines in determining what is essential for human survival," Kobick said. "I don't know why liquor stores were included, but gun retailers were not."

Judge Woodlock agreed that governments are owed deference "at the macro level" when responding to emergencies, but said they aren't freed from all responsibilities. He mused that the decision may have been related to the state's strong liquor lobby or its political leanings on gun control.

"Now we are dealing with the micro level, and deference doesn't fall like the mists over San Clemente," the judge said. "It requires a sober analysis of the responsibilities of those who sell various kinds of commodities and in the absence of any contemporaneous explanation what it is that could distinguish those two ... the line is drawn to burden constitution rights and not sumptuary rights."

He added: "In the absence of real justification or a real outline of what the distinctions are, it is really difficult to give deference to concerted silence on the part of the administrators who are required to make these decisions."

In two lawsuits joined into the single case before Judge Woodlock, Massachusetts citizens, gun shops and advocacy groups are asking the court to force the state to let the shops resume sales after Baker ordered their closure in early April. Lobbyist groups including the National Rifle Association decried the closures as egregious violations of constitutional rights.

The state has argued that the temporary nature of the ban and the other avenues to buy guns and ammo mean the plaintiffs' constitutional rights aren't heavily burdened. But the citizens and stores have argued that person-to-person private transactions are no replacement for gun stores, which offer the type of advice that's important to first-time buyers as well as warranties for the products.

Kobick repeated throughout the hearing that the closures should be upheld and are narrowly tailored because they are set to end May 18.

Judge Woodlock pushed back on the "temporary" justification, saying it fails to capture the situation where deadlines have already been extended twice.

"'Temporary and sustained' is what I'd say at this stage, and so there's been a good deal of time with no formal justification, and sustained, not only temporary, impingement of Second Amendment rights," the judge said.

The availability of ammunition is a major issue as well, according to Judge Woodlock, who explained, "If you're shooting blanks, you don't have Second Amendment rights."

From the record of briefs and affidavits before him, Judge Woodlock asked the state whether the availability of some handgun ammunition — albeit for smaller calibers not ideal for personal protection — at some Walmarts around the state justify the state's "effective ban" on ammunition sales through the closure of the gun shops.

"We do contend that rights of plaintiffs are fully protected by the availability of ammunition in Walmart," Kobick responded. "Many of the plaintiffs live near state borders. They can always go to dealers in New Hampshire."

The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened.

"I want to see if I can resolve the question promptly and if I issue an order, it's one the parties believe is workable if not justifiable," the judge said.

From the outset, Judge Woodlock indicated his analysis would follow steps laid out in a 2018 case in the First Circuit, Gould et al. v. Morgan et al., that adopted a two-part test to determine whether an action runs afoul of the Second Amendment based on how close it comes to the core of the right and then whether it withstands appropriate scrutiny.

The Gould decision held as a core Second Amendment right the ability "of responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home."

The McCarthy plaintiffs are represented by David D. Jensen of David Jensen & Associates.

The Cedrone LLC plaintiffs are repented by Andrew J. Couture.

Baker and other state officials named in the suit are represented by Julia Kobick of the Massachusetts Office of the Attorney General.

The cases are McCarthy et al. v. Baker et al., case number 1:20-cv-10701, and Cedrone LLC et al. v. Baker et al., case number 1:20-cv-40041, in the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts.
 
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