Collapsible stock question

[celisup78]

I know that I cannot have any postban high cap mags in MA, but what about a collapsible stock for an AR. I am not talking about one mounted, I know the evil rules for postban AR's. I mean can I have an unmounted collapsible stock for my AR just sitting in a drawer or closet?

 

[vellnueve]

Yes, you can own the stock. However, if you don't have a pre-ban AR lower or some other firearm that you could mount it, and have a post-ban rifle, you could easily get charged with constructive possession.

 

[jdubois]

However, if you don't have a pre-ban AR lower or some other firearm that you could mount it, and have a post-ban rifle, you could possibly get charged with constructive possession.

FIFY

 

[vellnueve]

I said charged, not convicted.

 

[jdubois]

Even getting charged is obviously not very easy. I know from first hand experience (mostly observing people at the range) that there are plenty of folks running around with illegally configured post-ban guns, post-ban mags, etc. yet there has never been a single person charged under 131M.

 

[Bob P]

Potential vs probability.

The POTENTIAL to get charged existes but the PROBABILITY of a charge and/or conviction may be low.

Up to you if you want to make that bet with a 10 year sentence on the line.

 

[Ultimate]

Up to you if you want to make that bet with a 10 year sentence on the line.

And your 2A taken away for life.

 

[drgrant]

The argument of constructive possession of an AW based on just a collapsible stock being near a properly stocked post-ban rifle is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly. On the other hand if your post AR was in pieces with the stock missing I could see more of a risk being present, because then it would be a lot easier for them to try to argue that you intended to replace the stock with an "illegal" one. Not to mention there are a substantial amount of legal uses for a collapsible AR stock, even in MA.

Note that, this is a lot different, than say, having a preban style upper around, which pops on and off the lower in like
10 seconds.


-Mike

 

[maee]

Yes, you can own the stock. However, if you don't have a pre-ban AR lower or some other firearm that you could mount it, and have a post-ban rifle, you could easily get charged with constructive possession.

I was under the impression that constructive possession only applies to NFA items. In other words, it is not part of the AWB text.

In other words, constructive possession is not some general legal principle that applies to all contraband. For example, if I have chemical X and I have chemical Y that makes illegal chemical Z, possession is not prohibited. However, the NFA specifically has a section pertaining to constructive possession, as I recall/

 

[Fooped]

With no case law, "easily" is the wrong choice of words. It is numerically possible, but not probable at all. JDubois and BobP are on point here.

And once again, spare me the "Do you want to be the test case" rhetoric. It's a known quantity.

 

[drgrant]

I was under the impression that constructive possession only applies to NFA items. In other words, it is not part of the AWB text.

Constructive possession can apply to a lot of things, not just NFA items. NFA is just more obvious because BATFE has laid down case law, issued rulings, etc...

Here's a good example...

A convicted felon lives with his girlfriend. His girlfriend is clean and she owns a revolver. If she leaves the revolver in an accessible location to the felon, and the police search the premises for whatever reason while the felon is there, and find her unsecured revolver on the premises, they may try to charge HIM with felon in possession, because he "constructively" possessed the gun- eg, he still had access to it. On the other hand, if she locks the gun up in a safe before she leaves the house, and only she has access, it would be incredibly difficult for the prosecution to show that he constructively possessed that revolver, because the presence of the safe has inserted another degree of separation.

A lot of whether CP will fly or not is based on other laws in court, case law, etc. If they try to get someone on CP with a weak case, the case will fail.

ETA, heres another fun example. Say a guy likes to play with chemicals as a hobby. Somehow mary hairnet finds out he has a lab in his basement, and then
they come and perform an unwarranted raid on his lab, etc. The prosecutor/DA still has to prove that the guy had intent to manufacture illegal substances or
devices... and if he can't do that "cleanly" in court, it's going to fail.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

Constructive possession can apply to a lot of things, not just NFA items. NFA is just more obvious because BATFE has laid down case law, issued rulings, etc...

Exactly. In a general legal sense, Constructive Possession means that while not having physical possession of something, you do have control over it similarly to if you had physical possession of it.

Some other examples:

You have the keys to a car. You then have constructive possession of that car.

A waiter in a restaurant makes a copy of the information from your credit card. They now have constructive possession of your credit card.

If you default on your house payments, the bank takes constructive possession of it.

You and a bunch of buddies get pulled over and they find drugs in the car. Nobody admits who they belong to. You all have constructive possession of those drugs.

 

[EzGoingKev]

I would just explain that I was keeping it in case Massachusetts ever becomes a free state again.

 

[Fooped]

I would think that the DA would have a real hard time making a CP case stick if you had a pre-ban lower in your possession along with the "evil" config upper, regardless of what other AR-related components you also had.

 

[drumenigma]

I would think that you could say that you were intending on making it compliant if it were to ever "mate" with a post ban lower that you owned. Hopefully you would be telling the truth when saying it. There shouldn't be any reasoning that says when you buy something like that it has to be pinned even when not on a completed gun. Like Fooped I think getting CP to stick would be very difficult.

 

[jdubois]

I would think that you could say that you were intending on making it compliant if it were to ever "mate" with a post ban lower that you owned.

That might fly if you bought it yesterday, but if you'd had it a while it becomes less convincing. I think the truth is that a constructive possession type charge like this is something neither the prosecutor nor the defendant would want to have to deal with. My guess is that a DA would attempt to use it as a bargaining chip, rather than expect it to actually make it to court.

 

[BeerGuy]

I'm looking to pick up a new S&W M&P15t when they "eventually" come back into stock at my preferred shop.

I was hoping to add the Ace M4 Socom stock to it because it comes with the extra hardware to fix it in place at a desired length.

Does that ability make it compliant with the AWB, since it won't be readily collapsible?

 

[jdubois]

In order to not count as a folding or telescoping stock, it must be permanently pinned. If you can reverse the pinning, it's not legal. Yes, I know the majority of pinned stocks can be easily unpinned; People have gotten sloppy with compliance.

 

[RKG]

I was under the impression that constructive possession only applies to NFA items . . . In other words, constructive possession is not some general legal principle that applies to all contraband. . . .

False impression.

 

[mac1911]

Is the mass no collapsible/folding stock on semi auto/assault weapons a law in it self?
Or are they just sticking with the AWB regs and guidelines?

Reason being: if you go by the AWB quide line, If you removed the pistol grip, would you then be able to install a colapsable stock? post ban guns that is.

Now is there a law in mass that restricts the over all length of a ar with a pinned stock.
Im not to happy with where they pinned mine, length wise.

 

[jdubois]

Is the mass no collapsible/folding stock on semi auto/assault weapons a law in it self?
Or are they just sticking with the AWB regs and guidelines?

Both, sort of. The MA ban is not the same as the federal ban, but it is 98% similar. People tend to take the federal regulations and ATF rules and letters as guidelines for the MA ban since it is so similar, however they are not strictly necessarily applicable.

Reason being: if you go by the AWB quide line, If you removed the pistol grip, would you then be able to install a colapsable stock? post ban guns that is.

Yes, you can trade the pistol grip for a telescoping/folding stock. But on an AR, removing the pistol grip would make for an awkward configuration.

Now is there a law in mass that restricts the over all length of a ar with a pinned stock.
Im not to happy with where they pinned mine, length wise.

No, there is no MA law regarding the overall length of the gun. You have to be careful, however, if reducing the length of the barrel to less than 16" or the overall length of the gun to less than 26", because you start to get into SBR and/or AR Pistol territory and it gets messy. But just having your the length of your stock adjusted or replacing it with a different one shouldn't be a problem.