The only thread I found on this was from 2006. I wanted to know if it's legal in MA to buy a black powder revolver and a cartridge conversion cylinder and if so, is that considered a firearm and one that I need an LTC to own? I don't even know if owning a black powder firearm of any sort needs an ltc?
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Cartridge conversion Cylinders, LTC's, and MA?
- Thread starter kingston73
- Start date
GOAL - Primitve Arms
goal.org
HOWEVER ...
NOTE: Although a firearms license is not needed to possess primitive long guns such as a muzzleloading rifle or shotgun or its ammunition, a firearms license is needed to purchase all ammunition including black powder.
Gun ownership in Massachusetts
Massachusetts residents 15 years and older who wish to possess, carry, and transport firearms, ammunition, and feeding devices are required to have a firearms license. Firearms licenses are issued by municipal police departments.
so I can buy the revolver but can’t buy the ammo without at least an FID?
You can buy the black powder non-firearm.
You can possess the black powder and ball "ammo" for it.
You can't buy the "ammo" for it in Massachusetts.
But if you convert it to a modern cartridge gun, I'm pretty sure that means you've build a firearm and all those laws would apply.
But as they say IANAL
MisterHappy
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I'm with Len.
Since the laws exempts Primitive (non-fixed cartridge) arms, making it a fixed cartridge arm makes it a "firearm," in the Mass regulatory-speak.
Since the laws exempts Primitive (non-fixed cartridge) arms, making it a fixed cartridge arm makes it a "firearm," in the Mass regulatory-speak.
You can't do any of what your asking legally, you can't have any ammo or components including BP or round balls or percussion caps, nevermind having a conversion cylinder and actual ammunition. It's not worth getting jammed up. The minute you put a conversion cylinder in it and make it capable of firing modern ammunition you are manufacturing/building a firearm and need an ltc and u are technically supposed to fa10 it.
MisterHappy
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cite please?
The specific law or lack of law on possession isn't the issue. You can't buy them and good f***ing luck if you get caught with them or a loaded bp gun without ltc/fid. In most any town in this shit hole of a state, will get charged, you will end up in court, as a felon in front of a judge, and it will not end well unless you have money for a good defense.
MisterHappy
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So....you have no cite.
"(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
For purposes of this section, ''ammunition'' shall mean cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun."
FWIW, you don't need to have "fixed ammunition" (brass/other case) to violate the ammunition ownership/possession statute. Black powder or lead balls, or for that matter smokeless powder and "modern" lead or jacketed bullets, as (re)loading components, are subject to the same provisions.
Exactly why I included the footnote from the MGL in my post. They covered all the bases.
Can you do it? Technically yes.
Should you do it? No.
Is it legal to have the conversion cylinder? Probably.
Is it legal to install the conversion and possess the result in MA without LTC? No.
Will you be able to buy ammo? No.
Coming to NES looking for legal loopholes is a fool's game. It's like the NES version of "Dinner for Schmucks".
Should you do it? No.
Is it legal to have the conversion cylinder? Probably.
Is it legal to install the conversion and possess the result in MA without LTC? No.
Will you be able to buy ammo? No.
Coming to NES looking for legal loopholes is a fool's game. It's like the NES version of "Dinner for Schmucks".
MisterHappy
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General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 129C
malegislature.gov
Clause (p), which refereces
The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:
(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; ...
HorizontalHunter
NES Member
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 129C
Clause (p), which refereces
The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:
(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; ...
I quoted (P) below for clarity.
(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.
I would suggest that the OP stays away from modern inline black powder rifles which use modern shotgun primers for ignition and modern saboted bullets. Stick with flintlock or percussion cap rifles.
IIRC someone was caught carrying a BP pistol and was charged with carrying a firearm without a license.
FWIW:
Some of the controlled hunts, Quabbin Reservoir for one, requires an FID to be shown at check in regardless of the weapon you are using.
Bob
MisterHappy
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Yes, 209 primers are not covered.
Interesting about the thing at Quabbin. IIRC, the Youth Pheasant HUnt program used to have BP shotguns for kids that were caught in the gap when you had to be 15 to apply for an FID, but needed an FID to hunt with a modern shotgun, if you were over 15.
Interesting about the thing at Quabbin. IIRC, the Youth Pheasant HUnt program used to have BP shotguns for kids that were caught in the gap when you had to be 15 to apply for an FID, but needed an FID to hunt with a modern shotgun, if you were over 15.
General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 129C
Clause (p), which refereces
The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:
(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; ...
Seems that the law is in conflict with itself.
Nothing here exempts anyone from Section 269. Black Powder can be used as a propellant powder in a "firearm" as defined in the law.
The footnote says "For purposes of this section, ''ammunition'' shall mean cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun."
MisterHappy
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Gee....MGLs being poorly written.
If you were to have a fixed cartridge filled with BP, that would be ammo. Loose BP, would not be, because as
The footnote says "For purposes of this section, ''ammunition'' shall mean cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun."
and MGLs specifically state that primitive arms are not firearms, rifles, or shotguns.
If you were to have a fixed cartridge filled with BP, that would be ammo. Loose BP, would not be, because as
The footnote says "For purposes of this section, ''ammunition'' shall mean cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun."
and MGLs specifically state that primitive arms are not firearms, rifles, or shotguns.
It also states that anything from which a shot, pellet, or bullet can be discharged is considered a firearm for the purposes of some sections.
Bottom line is that Black Powder is a propellent which can be used in a shotgun, rifle, or firearm, so that would seem to also preclude possession without a permit, even for primitive firearms.
The law is full of contradictory information.
MisterHappy
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It also states that anything from which a shot, pellet, or bullet can be discharged is considered a firearm for the purposes of some sections.
I believe that only applies to schools? Or are there other places?
I believe that only applies to schools? Or are there other places?
HorizontalHunter
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Other places too, discharge over a roadway, threatening/menacing, poaching.
