Can I make a C&R purchase then gift it to a non C&R ltc?

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lrdwilder

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Hi All

I recently received my C&R and I've finally made a purchase of a few Mosin's. I have two friends who were in my wedding and are all around great guys, for Christmas I was considering gifting them a Mosin, as I know we all like them.

Am I allowed to do this? I know that when I recieve the riffles I must log them ect. Thus when I sell them to a non C&R I still will be required to log the sale to the individual and do an FA-10 even though I would be gifting these. But since I am purchasing them on my C&R am I allowed to gift them to a non C&R right away or is this a no go? I'm not selling them to these guys so I'm not acting as dealer...what do you think?
 
You really want this to be "an arms length" transaction, just in case it is ever questioned, so FFL them. It's worth the 20 bucks/gun not to have to sit down with the feds and talk your way out of a jam
 
Yes you can. But remember that the c&r is to enhance YOUR personal collection. So if you where to buy some guns for yourself and then decide to sell one to your friend that is fine.

lrdwilder said:
Hi All

I recently received my C&R and I've finally made a purchase of a few Mosin's. I have two friends who were in my wedding and are all around great guys, for Christmas I was considering gifting them a Mosin, as I know we all like them.

Am I allowed to do this? I know that when I recieve the riffles I must log them ect. Thus when I sell them to a non C&R I still will be required to log the sale to the individual and do an FA-10 even though I would be gifting these. But since I am purchasing them on my C&R am I allowed to gift them to a non C&R right away or is this a no go? I'm not selling them to these guys so I'm not acting as dealer...what do you think?
Click to expand...
 
Selling/giving a gun in your collection to a non-C&R, ok. Buying a gun with your C&R in order to sell/give it to somebody else, not ok. You have to decide how close your situation is one of these two possibilities, and how much dancing you want to do when ATF comes poking around.
 
I'd say it would come down to your intent. If the BATFE could prove you bought a C&R gun with the intent to make money selling it to someone, you'd be screwed.
 
Doesn't have to be with the intent to make money. all that does is violate the provisions of your license. The straw purchase issue is the main one here.
 
vellnueve said:
The straw purchase issue is the main one here.
Click to expand...

Without a 4473 filled out, it's pretty hard to have a straw purchase. The way they make a straw purchase illegal is under § 922(a)(6), which prohibits making false statements in connection with the acquisition of a firearm from an FFL. The first question on the 4473, "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?" is the false statement the ATF will take to court on a straw purchase.

The more pressing issue with the acquisition of a firearm for somebody else using your C&R is § 923(a) and 27 CFR § 478.41(d) (dealing without a license).
 
Point taken.

In that case, since its a gift, would it then seem to be OK since the collector would not be "engaged in the business of dealing C&Rs"?
 
There's nothing in the C&R regs that says you can't get a gun, and sell it or give it away.
You just can't do it as a business.

Just make sure that the giftee is allowed under law to own it.

Remember, we showed a while back that any gun you buy that is C&R eligible, while you have a C&R license, must be treated as a C&R purchase and logged into your book, even if you bought it from a dealer and filled out all the 'other' paperwork. So any gun over 50 years old must be logged in and then out of your 'book' when it leaves your posession.

There is nothing that prevents you from buying a gun and 'gifting' it, whether it's a C&R or not.

I repeat:
Just make sure that the giftee is allowed under law to own it.
 
You can transfer to a non C&R provided that it's a face to face (no shipping) transfer to a person who is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition, AND that the transfer complies with applicable state laws. As you note, you must do a FA10 and must log them out in your A&D book. At least that's my understanding. OTOH, if you are unsure about any part of the transaction you are better off going through a FFL.

It's only a straw purchase if the person is either prohibited or is trying to circumvent state law. To be a straw purchase, it would be done without a FA-10, thus there would be no record of it. You'd also have to put something in your bound book to explain the disposition of the rifles.

It's covered in the CFR book which you should have received as part of the package when you were issued the C&R license.

Of course, you could convince them to get C&Rs and then you could transfer the rifles to them. In which case they'd have to do FA10s as registrations. You'd have to have signed copies of their C&Rs which you would keep permanently. Then fill in the information in the disposition side of the book.

None of the foregoing is meant as legal advice, just my understanding of the regulations which I'm sharing with a fellow enthusiast.
 
Pilgrim said:
There's nothing in the C&R regs that says you can't get a gun, and sell it or give it away.
You just can't do it as a business.

Just make sure that the giftee is allowed under law to own it.

Remember, we showed a while back that any gun you buy that is C&R eligible, while you have a C&R license, must be treated as a C&R purchase and logged into your book, even if you bought it from a dealer and filled out all the 'other' paperwork. So any gun over 50 years old must be logged in and then out of your 'book' when it leaves your posession.

There is nothing that prevents you from buying a gun and 'gifting' it, whether it's a C&R or not.

I repeat:
Just make sure that the giftee is allowed under law to own it.
Click to expand...

I'd like to get confirmation about the logging part. This came up yesterday during my inspection and I was told the exact opposite. FFL or FTF purchases not involving the C&R license don't have to be entered in the A&D book. The inspector had zero interest in my personal firearms and said that was an issue with 01 licensees, but not 03s.
 
Garys said:
I'd like to get confirmation about the logging part. This came up yesterday during my inspection and I was told the exact opposite. FFL or FTF purchases not involving the C&R license don't have to be entered in the A&D book. The inspector had zero interest in my personal firearms and said that was an issue with 01 licensees, but not 03s.
Click to expand...

ATF can't make their mind up. They've answered this question the way you say above in the past, but Pilgrim disagreed with that, so I sent ATF a letter specifically asking this question. The answer came back agreeing with Pilgrim and the opposite of what they told you yesterday.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=567872&postcount=47
 
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Garys said:
I'd like to get confirmation about the logging part. This came up yesterday during my inspection and I was told the exact opposite. FFL or FTF purchases not involving the C&R license don't have to be entered in the A&D book. The inspector had zero interest in my personal firearms and said that was an issue with 01 licensees, but not 03s.
Click to expand...

Yes, however any purchase of a C&R involves the C&R license. BATFE's Firearms Technology Branch chief has noted this a few times, as jdubois noted. Thus, any C&R must be logged, no other firearms need be logged.
 
Garys said:
It's only a straw purchase if the person is either prohibited or is trying to circumvent state law.
Click to expand...

This is not correct. It is a straw purchase if question #1 on the 4473 is fraudulently answered.

Garys said:
It's covered in the CFR book which you should have received as part of the package when you were issued the C&R license.
Click to expand...

Yes it is, page 165. "In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm."
 
You can transfer to a non C&R provided that it's a face to face (no shipping) transfer to a person who is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition, AND that the transfer complies with applicable state laws.
Click to expand...


It's no different transferring a C&R than any other firearm in Ma. FTF is fine if you haven't met your annual 4 sales quota. If you have, then and only then, is an FFL in in order.
 
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Thanks for all your answers....The way I see it then is as follows:
1. Transfering as a GIFT to my friend not receiving any compensation for this
2. He is properly licensed in the same state as me, and an FA-10 form will be completed at the FTF transfer.
3. I will log in and out of my bound book correctly with the correct dispositions.
4. It will not be shipped
5. I am under my 4 fa-10's for the year, which also leads to proof of my not being "engage in the business of dealing C&R's"


So I think that fairly well takes care of this, I do not believe this is a straw hat at all. It is not being fraudulently purchased or transfered as the person is licensed correctly, and did not ask for this to be purchased by me. In point of fact, they are not even aware they are getting this present!
 
I agree, irdwilder. The only possible repercussion would be ATF deciding to audit you, determining you used your license for non-collecting activities, and revoking it. The proper way around that would be to say that when you received the gun, you weren't happy with the condition, but you knew someone who might like it, and so your got rid of it.
 
jdubois said:
I agree, irdwilder. The only possible repercussion would be ATF deciding to audit you, determining you used your license for non-collecting activities, and revoking it. The proper way around that would be to say that when you received the gun, you weren't happy with the condition, but you knew someone who might like it, and so your got rid of it.
Click to expand...

But he's posted worldwide that he wants to use his C&R for the purpose of buying firearms to give away as gifts[hmmm]
 
Why not have your friend get his own C&R and then you will not have to do anything....

My concern would be in the of an audit, it will show that you only had the gun in your book for only a few days and then sold/gave away - what was the intent of the purchase? But I am paranoid....
 
I'm not aware of any problem shipping a C&R within the state.

Why would this be a problem?

edited:

never mind. It would be a problem unless the receiver has a C&R.

Sometimes I'm slow but eventually get it.
 
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Most of the concern you all keep mentioning is the fact that I was buying these for the purpose of giving them....This is NOT the case......I purchsed 5 of these and already had 1 pre-C&R. It was my decision post purchase to gift them. Which still shows that I have 4 of them.
 
Well, if you were buying them for yourself and then decided to gift one, no issues. Just log it out on your A/D record and file the proper FA-10 form, assuming your friend has proper FID or better.
 

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