C&R status changes

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massaiga

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When I first got my C&R license the BATFE sent me nice welcome package with lots of useful information including a FAQ which stated that a C&R firearm must remain in its original configuration in order for it to be a C&R firearm. They gave the explicit example of replacing the stock on a rifle. They said that refinishing the original stock or replacing the original wood with replacement wood would be fine but that replacing a wood stock with a polymer stock would cause the firearm to no longer be C&R eligible.

I recently ran across a Mosin Nagant and was able to pick it up for a song and a dance due primarily to the fact that the stock is severely cracked and it is not shootable as it is. When I purchased this it was with the intention of throwing an aftermarket stock on it and making it a fun little shooter. I want to keep the original wood for the collector value (what there is of it) but day to day will likely be a loner rifle for when I take friends to the range.

So if I put a polymer stock on it it is no longer a C&R... do I have to disposition it out of my Bound Book? Do I disposition it to myself and move it out of the C&R collection safe and into the normal safe? This seems a little silly but I want to make sure I keep the paperwork sorted. If I sometime in the future decide to sped the money on a nice set of wood furniture for it it would suddenly become a C&R firearm again. Would I then need to enter it back in to the bound book?

I know I can call and ask the BATFE, they are fairly decent about answering questions, but I figured someone here must know the answer to this one.

-MS
 
Buying guns without a real FFL is not only dangerous but stupid. Throw that C&R in the garbage!
 
There's no need to do anything unless you dispose of it. At that time, you would just log it out as "altered from original military configuration", then it would be the same as any other private transfer.

As long as you have the parts, and haven't cut off any metal bits, it is "readily restorable".
 
The bound book records, and the C&R status affects, transactions. Since you intend to retain the original stock, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to restore the rifle to its original C&R configuration prior to transferring it onward. In the meantime, while it is in your possession, it matters not what (temporary) modifications you make to the piece -- with the proviso that you don't transform it into something that would be covered by yet another law, like the NFA.
.
 
sig2009 said:
Buying guns without a real FFL is not only dangerous but stupid. Throw that C&R in the garbage!
Click to expand...

How is a C&R not a real FFL? Are you going to tell me that the only real one is the FFL 01? What about the other 02-11. I wouldnt think that the ATF would agree that a C&R is not real FFL . The only stupid thing I can see with a C&R is not using it properly and that pretty much sums up everything that is not done properly as stupid.
 
The reason people here might say that an 03 is not a "real FFL" is this: Massachusetts gives it NO credence.

Yes, you can buy C&R guns out of state and have them shipped directly to you; certainly A Good Thing. However, you are required to file an FA-10 for each gun so acquired and for each gun sold. And you are still limited to 4 sales per year.
 
That I can get behind, Scriv. But considering sig2009 said it was "not only dangerous but stupid," to buy guns with a C&R FFL, I don't think that's what he was getting at.
 
Scrivener said:
The reason people here might say that an 03 is not a "real FFL" is this: Massachusetts gives it NO credence.

Yes, you can buy C&R guns out of state and have them shipped directly to you; certainly A Good Thing. However, you are required to file an FA-10 for each gun so acquired and for each gun sold. And you are still limited to 4 sales per year.
Click to expand...

Well MA gives it some credence. If I could not shop interstate for C&Rs then I would probably not own any. Shopping only the local shops just does not provide the collector with the good deals... And I could care less about only being able to sell 4 per year. I'm a collector, not a dealer. I have sold a grand total of zero in my life.
 
Scrivener said:
The reason people here might say that an 03 is not a "real FFL" is this: Massachusetts gives it NO credence.

Yes, you can buy C&R guns out of state and have them shipped directly to you; certainly A Good Thing. However, you are required to file an FA-10 for each gun so acquired and for each gun sold. And you are still limited to 4 sales per year.
Click to expand...

Um.... maybe you can clear something up for me. I thought the limit was 4 per year to *NON DEALERS*. Which is to say, I can sell as many as I want to/through dealers, just only 4 per year face to face on an FA10.

If that's the case, I can sell as many as I want per year, as long as they're C&Rs, and I sell them to other C&R holders, (including out of state)

Did I mis-read the law?
 
jdubois said:
Your Mosin Nagant is more than 50 years old. Sporterizing it won't change that fact, so it won't change it's C&R status.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about that. The docs from the BATFE make no distinction between C&Rs that C&Rs because they are over 50 versus C&Rs that are C&Rs because they are on the list. the FAQ states fairly clearly that a C&R which has been modified is no longer a C&R. period.

BATFE C&R FAQ said:
What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

The definition for curio or relic ("C&R") firearms found in 27 C.F.R 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

Its is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable - for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
Click to expand...

This FAQ make no distinction between C&Rs that are 50 years old vs. one certified by a museum vs. one that derive value from their uniqueness. This FAQ indicates that any C&R that has been modified is no longer a C&R.

-MS
 
milktree said:
Um.... maybe you can clear something up for me. I thought the limit was 4 per year to *NON DEALERS*. Which is to say, I can sell as many as I want to/through dealers, just only 4 per year face to face on an FA10.

If that's the case, I can sell as many as I want per year, as long as they're C&Rs, and I sell them to other C&R holders, (including out of state)

Did I mis-read the law?
Click to expand...

C&R FFLs holders are by definition not dealers. MA law states that you must do a FA-10 when transferring to a non-dealer and you can only do 4 per year.

You could sell as many as you want to a "real FFL" but when selling to a private party you are limited to 4 regardless of either party's C&R FFL status.
 
Last edited:
massaiga said:
I'm not so sure about that. The docs from the BATFE make no distinction between C&Rs that C&Rs because they are over 50 versus C&Rs that are C&Rs because they are on the list. the FAQ states fairly clearly that a C&R which has been modified is no longer a C&R. period.
Click to expand...

Ruling 85-10 only discusses importing of C&R guns, not possession of them. Whoever in the ATF Firearms Technology Branch wrote that FAQ answer doesn't know how to read their own rulings and regulations.

Note that in the published C&R list, they state:

ATF said:
Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms, and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).]
Click to expand...

So, they say that any gun older than 50 years old is C&R eligible, and sporterizing a surplus military firearm does not change it's status as a surplus military gun, yet a C&R surplus military gun that is sporterized somehow loses it's C&R status? No way. The gun is either it's receiver or it isn't. They can't have it both ways.

What you'll find when you start to dig into C&R questions with ATF is that you'll get as many answers as people you talk to over there (try asking if you need to log a C&R gun into your bound book that you purchased without using your C&R license. I've seen both yes and no come back as official written answers from ATF.) They have no idea what the hell they're doing, and just make stuff up as they go along.

The best way to handle the situation if you're worried about it, is to consider any C&R gun you have modified as still a C&R gun for the purposes of logging, and as not a C&R gun for the purposes of interstate sales to non-FFLs.
 
What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

The definition for curio or relic ("C&R") firearms found in 27 C.F.R 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

Its is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable - for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
Click to expand...

This is they way I always understood it. JDubois and I have had a couple of different ideas on other C&R issues. I do tend to agree with his last statement:

The best way to handle the situation if you're worried about it, is to consider any C&R gun you have modified as still a C&R gun for the purposes of logging, and as not a C&R gun for the purposes of interstate sales to non-FFLs.
Click to expand...
 

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