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Bullet Casting 101

Patriot said:
Let me know what you find out when you do that. I might be interested in it as well.
In the meantime I'll see if I can scrounge a couple off BobJ to try out. [smile]
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I'll do that but it might be a bit before I can afford to do anything. Being laid-off and Christmas has slowed my equipment build up quite a bit. Right now I'm concentrating on trying to find a decent source of lead and I'll get the few needed items later. Finding WW is turning to be alot harder than I thought it would be. Between what Fixxah showed me and the videos I've watched I can already tell casting is going to be very rewarding.
 
Any of the bigger tire shops near where ever you are should be able to assist with the WW lead. You will probably have to pay something for the WW's, since most of the tire shops sell it for coffee/pizza money......


ArmedMainer said:
I'll do that but it might be a bit before I can afford to do anything. Being laid-off and Christmas has slowed my equipment build up quite a bit. Right now I'm concentrating on trying to find a decent source of lead and I'll get the few needed items later. Finding WW is turning to be alot harder than I thought it would be. Between what Fixxah showed me and the videos I've watched I can already tell casting is going to be very rewarding.
Click to expand...
 
DukeInMaine said:
Any of the bigger tire shops near where ever you are should be able to assist with the WW lead. You will probably have to pay something for the WW's, since most of the tire shops sell it for coffee/pizza money......
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Already have tried that. Been to eight shops so far and they've all said they've got someone that's spoken for them. I see the Cast Boolits site has lead on there for sale. I might go that route.
 
DukeInMaine said:
Where are you in So Maine? And, how much lead would you want?
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We have a house in Lebanon but live in MA. full time. I'd like to get 50-100 lbs to start off with and once I get all set up get a bunch more. I want to buy everything I need in the next few months and then I'll set up a bench in the garage in Lebanon. I'm reading up on recommended equipment now so I'll start buying in January sometime.
 
ArmedMainer said:
Already have tried that. Been to eight shops so far and they've all said they've got someone that's spoken for them. I see the Cast Boolits site has lead on there for sale. I might go that route.
Click to expand...

Have gotten a lot of my lead that way..... Have not had much success with the local tire shops either...[thinking]

Particularly liked the ingots I got from the Captain in the Cast Boolits site.... Very clean, well fluxed and great packaging....

Had spotty results from a couple of ebay buys.... Raw WW are not bad as I can smelt and flux to ensure the lead is clean.... Had one ebay buy where I got smelted WW that was full of crap that I had to smelt and flux again to get clean enough for my casting pot....[smile]

Typically paying $45 shipped for 50 pounds of WW lead.... At this price each of the S&W 500 bullets I posted come out to about 3 cents each as cast.....[wink]
 
Bob J said:
Have gotten a lot of my lead that way..... Have not had much success with the local tire shops either...[thinking]

Particularly liked the ingots I got from the Captain in the Cast Boolits site.... Very clean, well fluxed and great packaging....

Had spotty results from a couple of ebay buys.... Raw WW are not bad as I can smelt and flux to ensure the lead is clean.... Had one ebay buy where I got smelted WW that was full of crap that I had to smelt and flux again to get clean enough for my casting pot....[smile]

Typically paying $45 shipped for 50 pounds of WW lead.... At this price each of the S&W 500 bullets I posted come out to about 3 cents each as cast.....[wink]
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Thanks for the cost break down and leads. I was bouncing around the Cast Boolits site this afternoon and saw a few people selling lead at that price shipped. A woman from RI was selling range lead for a decent price and I was thinking about driving down there at a certain point and stocking up.[smile][smile]
 
ArmedMainer said:
Thanks for the cost break down and leads. I was bouncing around the Cast Boolits site this afternoon and saw a few people selling lead at that price shipped. A woman from RI was selling range lead for a decent price and I was thinking about driving down there at a certain point and stocking up.[smile][smile]
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Cool deal.... Would be good to save the cost of shipping....[smile]

Is the range lead already smelted or in the raw form?
 
ArmedMainer said:
Already smelted and in ingots of some kind. I wouldn't drive down there unless I was going to buy enough to make it worth my while. [wink]
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Sounds good..... If you need any of your castings hardness tested, send me a few and I'll test them for you with my cabinetree....[wink]
 
Cast 20:1 Lead Yesterday

Set up the Cramer .452-200 for one 5 sided HP and one standard HP and cast in 20:1 lead:tin yesterday.... What a difference from my standard WW mix.... Needed to cast much hotter than with WW and water dropped..... Even though with this recipe I know that there is no hardening I though it would still be great to prevent damage to the boolits since they are very soft (7bhn on my Cabinetree)..... They all came out great.... Weather permitting will see how they shoot this weekend....[smile]
 
Patriot said:
Hi Bob,

Yes, the HP, but if that isn't convenient let me know. You are on RO duty this weekend I believe, yes?
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Hi Richard...... Still have the HP's for you..... I will have RO duty again on 24 Jan but if it doesn't look like you will be able to make it PM me your address and I'll put them in the mail for you.... Have several versions for you..... Hard cast 5 point HP (21 BHN), Soft 5 point (8 BHN) and soft standard HP.... Still need to play around to find the right hardness for me but would certainly keep the soft stuff under 800 fps or so to minimize the chance of leading.... All are sized to .452 and lubed with Carnuba Red....

Let me know.....;- )
 
Lyman M Dies

Discussions on the Cast Boolits site have convinced me that these are the way to go, especially when loading soft cast to minimize the chance of lead shaving and excessive loaded case runout..... Thought it would be worth sharing a great post by rob45 on the various positives and negatives associated with their use....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=71845


Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadWood View Post
Wayne,

Do i need the neck expanded? thought i was just trying to prevent the boolit from being shaved on seating?

Fairly new to reloading in general and never with cast.
Click to expand...


Your best results will be with the ID of the case neck .001" smaller than the OD of your bullet. This creates the proper neck tension without the possibility of resizing the bullet smaller than intended. Proper sizing of the neck in relation to the bullet also reduces runout, thereby improving concentricity of the finished cartridge.



So actually you're looking at two different problems, and each has various solutions.


1. The first problem is proper neck expansion in relation to your bullet.
The first thing you need to do is determine your cast bullet diameter, and hopefully it is slightly larger than bore diameter (.001" or better). Measure your bullets and determine the average OD.
Ideally, the inside diameter of the necks on your cases should be .001" smaller than the bullet, but this may or may not happen, because sizing die manufacturers tailor the expander ball/plug to produce best results with jacketed bullets, and the jacketed bullets are typically smaller than our lead bullets. All brass has varying degrees of hardness and springback, as do all of the various lead alloys we use. So one person may obtain fine results with a neck sized .003" under, while such a tight neck may send others back to the drawing board. If your case necks are grossly undersized, you have a couple of solutions:

a.) The manufacturer of your sizing die can make you a larger expander plug. Some people like to go this route because it eliminates the extra step of expanding the neck separately; however, something to keep in mind is the fact that if your particular sizing die sizes the neck down to the "small side" during the sizing process, then you may experience runout problems as the larger plug is pulled up through the neck. It all depends upon the tolerances of your sizing die. So if you choose to use a larger expander ball/plug for your sizing die, it may be prudent to also have the manufacturer slightly open up the neck sizing portion of the die so that it does not size the neck so small to begin with. Doing so improves both accuracy and brass life.
All of this assumes you are using a FL sizing die; if you have a situation where you can get away with neck-sizing only, then the best solution I have found is a Lee collet die with a custom-sized mandrel.

b.) If you do not wish to tailor the sizing die and expander ball to your application, then you can purchase a separate expander die. The Lyman M die is the most popular, but other manufacturers make them as well- Sinclair comes to mind. This process separates the sizing and expanding operations, so it requires an additional station on your press (or an extra step in the reloading process if you're using a single-stage press). If I am FL sizing my brass, I simply remove the expander ball from the sizing die so that it only sizes the brass down; doing so decreases the amount of reworking that the neck receives.
This method has its pros and cons.
The advantage is that the process is very accurate; in my experience, I tend to get less runout doing it this way, but like I said, that's just my experience. Another advantage is that it is considerably easier to alter an expander die mandrel to your specs than it is to alter a sizing die.
The disadvantage is that it makes it a 2-step process. If you're using a progressive setup or a turret setup, it takes up an extra station. Depending upon your press, you may or may not have enough stations to accommodate the extra step without resorting to separate press operations. Also, as mentioned above, if your sizing die is sizing the neck small, then you're simply working the neck even more as you expand the neck to your new larger ID. So although the expander die is a more economical solution, it does so at the expense of shorter brass life.


2. The second problem with which we are are concerned is flaring the case mouth. The slight flare is needed to ease the bullet into the neck while preventing lead shaving. Die sets for straight-wall cartridges are usually set up to accommodate this, but most dies for bottleneck rifle cartridges are not. The need to flare (and the extent) will be dependent upon the base of your bullet. Bevel-base and gas-checked bullets require less flare than plain-based bullets; sometimes, depending upon the bullet and brass used, we can even get away with using one of the VLD chamfering tools designed for jacketed boattail bullets.
If you need to flare, and your current tools are not set up to give the needed flare, the Lee and Lyman tools both do the job. The Lee tool only flares the mouth, while the Lyman M die both expands the neck and puts a flare on the mouth.


In conclusion, remember that neck expanding and flaring serve two different purposes.
The expanding process is for matching the neck to the bullet in order to obtain proper neck tension and minimize runout, while possibly (again depending upon brass and lead used) decreasing the chance of downsizing the bullet.
The flaring of the mouth is simply to prevent shaving of the bullet as it's being inserted.
Both need to be addressed, and the method you choose will be dependent upon the needs of your particular situation, but it all starts with the bullet. The bullet is tailored to the gun, and the brass is tailored to the bullet.
Click to expand...
 
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Cast 20:1 Lead Yesterday

Set up the Cramer .452-200 for one 5 sided HP and one standard HP and cast in 20:1 lead:tin yesterday.... What a difference from my standard WW mix.... Needed to cast much hotter than with WW and water dropped..... Even though with this recipe I know that there is no hardening I though it would still be great to prevent damage to the boolits since they are very soft (7bhn on my Cabinetree)..... They all came out great.... Weather permitting will see how they shoot this weekend....
Click to expand...

Wow,

7 BNH? I thought I was putting out soft boolits around 9.5-10.0. I had a leading problem with the boolits I made
that measured 10. I suspect that it was due to the powder I was using (AA#2) so I am going to load up some
more with 2400 to see how that works. I was shooting the 173gr 358429 out of a S&W M28 with a six inch
barrel.

I'm going to give heat treating a shot to see if I can harden them up somewhat. The wife is out of the house
today and I have the oven all to myself. If this works OK I will see if I can pick up one of those toaster ovens
when doing this in the future.
 
Certainly agree with you that they are a lot softer than I expected...... From what I've read they should be pretty safe as long as they are kept under 800fps or so which is pretty much what I load to anyway but I was hoping to get a chance to load and shoot some to verify if/when I run into leading..... Decided to hold off until my M dies came in so I could ensure that my bullets remain "as sized" especially with them being that soft....

Also ran into an interesting article which talked about using a pretty easy annealing process to soften the HP portion of the bullet while keeping the base hard cast.... Basically you place your hard cast bullets in a flat level pan of water which is approximately 1/4 inch deep and then use a propane torch with a spreader tip to heat the bullet noses just until they start to change color and then allow them to air cool slowly.... According to the article the results gave bases of roughly 21 BHN with noses around 12 BHN... Have not had a chance to try it yet but think it has potential....[smile]

Patriot said:
Wow,

7 BNH? I thought I was putting out soft boolits around 9.5-10.0. I had a leading problem with the boolits I made
that measured 10. I suspect that it was due to the powder I was using (AA#2) so I am going to load up some
more with 2400 to see how that works. I was shooting the 173gr 358429 out of a S&W M28 with a six inch
barrel.

I'm going to give heat treating a shot to see if I can harden them up somewhat. The wife is out of the house
today and I have the oven all to myself. If this works OK I will see if I can pick up one of those toaster ovens
when doing this in the future.
Click to expand...
 
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Great Casting Process Reference

Not sure if I posted this previously but for those who are looking to either get into or learn more about the process and considerations of casting there is a great book that Joe Brennan has been building that is available for download free or can be purchased on disk for a nominal fee..... Has over 500 contributors and I would consider it to be well worth a look....[wink]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=36337
 
Bob, Do you have the downloaded files?

I just spent 20 FRUSTRATING minutes trying to get to the files on the very user-UNFRIENDLY Yahoo site for the books.

I'll either go without the files, or wait to get them from someone. I must be a dummy cause I can't figure out how to get the files.
 
DukeInMaine said:
Bob, Do you have the downloaded files?

I just spent 20 FRUSTRATING minutes trying to get to the files on the very user-UNFRIENDLY Yahoo site for the books.

I'll either go without the files, or wait to get them from someone. I must be a dummy cause I can't figure out how to get the files.
Click to expand...

Did you sign up for the group on yahoo?
 
I've got all the files. I'll compress them tonight and let folks know when I'm done.

ETA: I zipped all the files I downloaded and it comes out as one zip file that is a little
over 12MB. I can send them out if needed.
 
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