Bullet Casting 101

Bob J

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Great thread on "lessons learned" while casting....... Tip of the hat to Sheepdog for this....[smile]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56097

Been here about 4 months and while I've learned a lot from stickies I realize I learned alot more from questions, trying new things, and just hopping right in.

I thought we might make a post-stickie starter thread for all the tips the stickies might have missed or more advanced tips for those that have a few pots worth under their belts.

Heres some I thought I'd share:

* Crayons are tempting to use for flux but will stain your pot.
* Sharpies are decent for marking ingot content but will fade, scratch awl works better.
* Don't melt different lead sources together, make separate ingots that you can make in portion later. Categories are clip on normal, clip on big trucks, stick ons, range scrap, batteries posts/clamps, plumbing lead, roof sheathing, glass window lead, rad pigs, and lift counterweights.
* Good sources of tin are pewter from sales and solder drippings from radiator shops.
* Cooking your alloy too hot will oxidize the top and separate the tin to some degree.
* Til you get more advanced don't quench you mould, can cause warping.
* Best way to heat a mould is to stick just the corner of the mould in the lead and let it heat. Pour a boolit and let it sit til the sprue is bearly hard. Mark sure the first boolit isn't still liquidy.
* Frosted boolits= too hot an alloy. Wrinked boolits=too cold a mould.
* "Tin" cans contain no tin. Pencils contain no lead.
* Lead alloys stick to steel easier than aluminum. A light layer of rust will help keep this from happening.
* Boolits usually shoot best when one thousandths to 3 thousands of an inch over their quoted caliber but no way to know til you slug your bore.
* A good and very dry hardwood stick makes a good flux if stirred long enough.
* Lead boolits are not harder on your barrel as some suggest. They are in fact easier on the barrel and your brass.
* Lead is more poisonous the finer it gets. You will likely get more lead breathing in dust from tumbling media then handling boolits.
* Do not eat drink or smoke while casting. Wash hands, face, and anything you handled after casting.
* Best way to store cold dross if its not being recycled is in a non-biodegradable container.
* Water quenching only hardens lead with arsenic in it (ie alloys with clip ones or chilled shot).
* A good way to pan lube is to use a small loaf pan sat on top of your production pot after its turned off. The secondary heat will melt the wax. After its melted stick in the freezer for no more than 5 minutes to temper the lead and loosen the lube cabe from the pan. Tip over and push the boolits through.
* Do not smelt down wheel weights or other lead in your pour pot.
* Never let your pour pot get empty. Refill at half full, will keep most junk from getting down into your pour whole.
* When casting keep a towel over your lap and down your legs from rogue lead run off.
* A flat rock to sit on top of your pour pot when heating up or for breaks keeps the pot heat inside.
* Never never never put anything even remotely moist in your pot.
 

Bob J

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You certainly are welcome Jim......[grin]

BTW, I priced out my cost for reloading 200 grain SWC 45 ACP rounds with cast bullets (assuming I get the wheel weights for free and reuse the brass) at $.04 a round..... Pretty sweet.....[smile]

Great lessons....Bob...thx for bringing it over here.

Jim
 

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You certainly are welcome Jim......[grin]

BTW, I priced out my cost for reloading 200 grain SWC 45 ACP rounds with cast bullets (assuming I get the wheel weights for free and reuse the brass) at $.04 a round..... Pretty sweet.....[smile]

I pay $30 for a full five gallon bucket of WW (about 125-150 lbs - I haven't weighed it but
other people have and I've seen estimates from 100-150). I lose around 5 pounds to zinc
and steel. I don't know the efficiency yet of what lead the remainder will yield but assuming
it is 90%, that is around 100 pounds of lead. Assuming you are loading 230gr bullets that is
about 3000 bullets. Your only cost (after start up) is the cost of smelting them into ingots
and the electricity for the casting pot when making bullets. Assume $10 for electrical costs.

Costs:

WW = $30
Propane = $10
Electricity = $10
Lube = $2.00

Total = $52

Last time I looked I think that 500 230gr bullets were going for around $50, plus shipping.
 

Bob J

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Nice!

Which bullets do you cast? Anything besides the 230 grain 45ACP?.....[smile]

Thought this thread was pretty good on different strategies for asking for lead:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55946&highlight=wheel+weights


I pay $30 for a full five gallon bucket of WW (about 125-150 lbs - I haven't weighed it but
other people have and I've seen estimates from 100-150). I lose around 5 pounds to zinc
and steel. I don't know the efficiency yet of what lead the remainder will yield but assuming
it is 90%, that is around 100 pounds of lead. Assuming you are loading 230gr bullets that is
about 3000 bullets. Your only cost (after start up) is the cost of smelting them into ingots
and the electricity for the casting pot when making bullets. Assume $10 for electrical costs.

Costs:

WW = $30
Propane = $10
Electricity = $10
Lube = $2.00

Total = $52

Last time I looked I think that 500 230gr bullets were going for around $50, plus shipping.
 

Patriot

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Nice!

Which bullets do you cast? Anything besides the 230 grain 45ACP?.....[smile]

Thought this thread was pretty good on different strategies for asking for lead:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55946&highlight=wheel+weights

Nothing yet. I am getting set up to cast .45/.44/.38/.357/.32. I have most everything to go.
It's just a matter of doing it. The weather isn't helping to smelt my WW. I did a little
yesterday but not enough to start casting.

Asking for lead (at least where I've gone) is a joke unless you pay for it. I have one gas
station that was tossing his WW and I gave him a bucket to toss them into and he saves
them for me. Amounts to maybe 5 pounds a month. I was given a half bucket free but
when I went back to the place they wanted $ for it. That is where I buy it. At least they
give me a very full bucket so while it's not free, it's not outrageous either. I tried another
place and the wanted $35/bucket. I was a little bit of a ride for me so I didn't deal with
him. Trying to get free WW without knowing someone in the tire industry is fruitless. I
went to every shop in my town and none would give me any. They didn't have enough
to make it worth my while to buy them but what they had they weren't going to give them
away either. I hit up a bunch of big places and they won't even talk with you.

Don't let me discourage you from trying. I will still ask a place if I am in the neighborhood
just to see if someone else is tossing them. Have a bucket in your truck at all times. If
your are the type that gets upset with being rejected, scrounging for WW is not a builder
of self-esteem by a long shot.
 

Bob J

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Certainly my pleasure...... Do you have any specific bullet(s) in mind that you are thinking about casting? [smile]

Thanks for posting this Bob J !! This is something I've always wanted to do but never had anyone to show me. I'll start buying the needed tools this summer.
 

EddieCoyle

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I'm going to start casting bullets for my .500 soon. I've secured a source for wheel weights, and have most of the stuff I need.

Does anybody have a recommendation for a sizing press?

Is the price for the Star justified as compared to the RCBS?
 

Bob J

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I'm going to start casting bullets for my .500 soon. I've secured a source for wheel weights, and have most of the stuff I need.

Does anybody have a recommendation for a sizing press?

Is the price for the Star justified as compared to the RCBS?

I know that Fixxah will say Star/Phelps, but I have been using The Lyman lubrisizers for years and they work fine. The Lyman dies & nose punches are interchangable which is a plus. To each his own!
 
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casting

I use Lees die for some of my sizing with lees tumble lube.works on my 30 cal.
its not star its magma now.
get a router speed control from Harbor freight $14.99 to control temp works great on my saeco pot.controls the voltage.
I cast 45 SWC 200 gr.works in my 3 1911s.
I use Lees 6 cavity molds.midsouthshooters $36.08.+ $12 for handles.
 
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my father did this for a while back when i was a kid, his favorite source of lead was wheel weights.

use caution though: my father used to do it out in the garage and once put the dipper (which apparently had some condensation on it) in the molten lead and.... lead shot about 3 feet in the air lol

lesson learned: molten lead and water do not mix, make sure all your dippers, casts, molds, etc are completely dry and free of condensation
 
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I'm going to start casting bullets for my .500 soon. I've secured a source for wheel weights, and have most of the stuff I need.

Does anybody have a recommendation for a sizing press?

Is the price for the Star justified as compared to the RCBS?


I have an old Lyman 450, it does a good job but is slow. My friend has the star and it is a out three times faster as is with no upgrades. If you're going to go high volume, I'd get the star, I am whenever I find some disposable money. If you are just casting for your hand cannons, I'd go with the Lyman or the RCBS for ease of seating gas checks. I will keep both on the bench. Also, get the heater, as you are going to want a hard lube like Orange Magic for those beasts.
 

Fixxah

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EC,
Can you get velocities low enough to use WW alloy? Even with gas checks the alloy may need to be mostly linotype.

Bigb Gun is correct, I love the Star and it is worth the asking price. It will last longer than any of us will be around and still crank out the bullets.

Patriot has one also. If you want to try one out feel free to come by any time. If you can't find the time let me know and I will bring it over for you to use for a while.
 

Patriot

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I'm going to start casting bullets for my .500 soon. I've secured a source for wheel weights, and have most of the stuff I need.

Does anybody have a recommendation for a sizing press?

Is the price for the Star justified as compared to the RCBS?

EC,

The guys over at castboolits are doing a custom mould you might be interested in.
383gr for the cone shaped HP, 373 for the wide HP.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55121
 
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according to a borrowed chrony, i had some non-gas checked 200gr SWC's going ~ 1140fps out of my 1911 :) no leading of the bore


1500fps should be fine with a gas check.
 

Patriot

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How fast can you shoot a gas-checked bullet made from wheel weights? I'm looking for something to load mild, say 1400-1500 fps.

You will probably have to heat-treat them or water drop them to get the hardness up to
Linotype-like levels. WW have a hardness of about 11-12 (BHN) and most of the stuff I
see with the higher velocities are using Lino hardness which is around 21+. Those velocities
are what I see in the .30 caliber cast bullets made for rifles using Lino. Most other stuff is
around 1K or under using WW and or #2 alloy. I am a noob with this stuff also so take what
I say with a grain of salt.
 

Bob J

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Thought it would be worth sharing what I have found relative to barrel leading with cast bullets...... Keep in mind that I am still a noob at this so this is probably some mix of experience and myth so YMMV....[grin]

The 2 real fundamentals are the condition of the bore and the size of the bullet.... If the bore is not smooth, bright and clean you will have a high probability of having leading problems with any cast bullet.... Thorough cleaning and Militec1 treatments are your friends here..... An undersized cast bullet will also have a high probability of leading.... Typically you will want to slug your barrel to find out it's size and then cast/size your bullets to be 0.002 over....

If you are leading near the breech, harden your alloy in your bullets.... If you are leading near the muzzle, change your lube to a more durable one....

Antimony (commonly available in Linotype Lead) will increase the hardness of your bullets and tin will make it softer but flow better.... Harder bullets are also more brittle so you don't want to add more than necessary.... Water dropping your bullets (vice dropping on a large towel or other soft material) will also harden your bullets if you don't need too much....

To go with a gas check (GC) bullet design or not seems to be a constant debate on Cast Boolits but the best summary is the following posted by Bret4207:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48857&highlight=leading

I'll give you my understanding, it'll be in simple terms and is only my opinion.

Yes, there is a need for gas checks once you pass a certain point. That point varies from load to load and gun to gun, even ambient temp can affect it so your summer load might need it and your winter load not.

Obturation is an iffy thing, sometimes it happens and good results follow, other times it happens and bad things follow. Same for when there is no obturation. In a perfect world the would be no obturation- the boolit wild precisely fit the throat area and the powder would gently start the boolit down the barrel without distortion. That's why Harry Pope and Zischang and Schoyen and all the other old time lead boolit shooters used a false muzzle and muzzle loaded their guns. Most of us won't do that. We prefer fixed ammunition, so we try and hit a happy medium.

Different powders, primers, case shapes, throat shapes, seating depth, alloy, boolit design and size , rifling type and condition, even ambient air pressure can cause variations in the burn rate and pressure curve of a given load. SOME plain based boolits in SOME guns will be extremely forgiving of all those variables and will tend to shoot good up to somewhere around 2000 fps. At least those are the claims that have been made. You will occasionally hear of someone who gets 22-2300 fps for 5 shots or so. If this is true, these guys shouldn't even bother picking up a lottery ticket, they've used all their luck up!

In an average rifle those variables will stack up in a seemingly random order and usually limit your plain base shooting to under 1600 in general no matter how good a fit you have. That 1600 fps can be 1200 in some guns, 1700-1800 in others, larger calibers tend to be more forgiving. If, IF you go to a slower powder, a harder alloy, maybe a little larger boolit and a super lube and a filler you can up the speed. Maybe. It might work one day and not the next.

In handguns the PB generally works up to 11-1300 fps given good fit, etc as with rifles. Cartridges like the 45ACP can be used at factory velocity with PB with little problem, same for the 32 ACP and 380 ACP. Low pressure! Take a 9mm and you're good to a certain point and then it's lead city. Same for the 38, 357, 40S+W, 44 Special and Mag and of course the any of the other hotter rounds. Pressure seems to be the bad guy here and to me at least, it seems to work a little differently in handguns than in rifles.

A gas check just makes achieving higher velocity at a higher pressure easier. IMO boolit bases do not, and have never "melted". There isn't time enough , even under the pressures involved, for the heat transfer to take place. IMO what happens at the base is that the pressure pushes the lead around and like a rock thrown in mud there is some splashing. The rougher and weaker the base and alloy the more splash. Lead alloy is ductile and if you've ever hit an ingot with a hammer you can see that you don't get a smooth surface when you've hit it. I believe this takes place and the "splashed" particles are minute, maybe microscopic in size even.

The same general theory goes for the sides of the boolit once it's moving- only now you have hot gases trying to rush past the boolit through any gap between boolit and barrel. The alloy doesn't "melt", the gases abrade the boolit surface (and of course a rough barrel can help this happen too) and the particles of alloy are blown onto the barrel surface and pressed on by pressure. At least that's my understanding. There can also be the instance of lube failure where the alloy is actually rubbed into the barrel surface. I call it lube failure, but it may actually be something else.

So what does the GC do?

1- Provides a scraping action to the barrel. The edge of the check theoretically scrapes lead from the boolit ahead of it away from the barrel.

2- Provides a seal of sorts in a properly sized gas check/barrel interface. An undersized gas check is a waste of money. What the tolerance is depends on the gun and load, but as a general rule I want my checks at least bore size and preferably closer to groove size. If the check is under bore size it's effect is drastically reduced, may not work at all and is wasted money.

3- Provides a much stronger base to the boolit and one that remains square throughout the boolits journey up the barrel. This I've seen- seat a check crooked and shoot several groups with crooked checks and square checks. It don't take a genius to see the difference.

4- Makes achieving higher velocities at higher pressures EASIER. That doesn't mean the sky is the limit. There comes a point where the alloy can't take the pressure/velocity/rifling anymore and you get leading and wild shooting. But the GC makes it easier to go faster using pressure to boost speed.

That's my understanding at this point. 10 years ago I had a different opinion, 20 years ago it was different than that! I used to think hard, hard, hard!!! I thought that would solve all the problems. Not so. A GC won't solve it all either, but it does reduce the variables in most cases.
 

gerrycaruso

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It's my understanding that heat treating by dropping in water only hardens the outside, like case hardening. When you size, you ruin that hard shell. The correct method is to cast, size, re-heat and harden. Too much work for me. I harden with linotype.
 
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It's my understanding that heat treating by dropping in water only hardens the outside, like case hardening. When you size, you ruin that hard shell. The correct method is to cast, size, re-heat and harden. Too much work for me. I harden with linotype.

Ditto! I get a brinell of 21-23 using lino and have exceeded 2000fps with a 500G G.C. bullet in a 460 Weatherby with minor muzzle leading. That is in a 28" barrel.
 

Bob J

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It's my understanding that heat treating by dropping in water only hardens the outside, like case hardening. When you size, you ruin that hard shell. The correct method is to cast, size, re-heat and harden. Too much work for me. I harden with linotype.

Good point..... Another possibility is (taken from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual):

The traditional approach to obtaining a stronger bullet has been to select an ally with greater percentage of antimony and tin. There are advantages to doing this since higher ally content generally give more improved casting and the accompanying increase in bullet diameter may provide a better fit of the bullet to the firearm chamber. On the other hand, using alloy content alone presents some problems. There is no way to overcome the softening induced by sizing, sectional density is reduced and the alloying agents increase cost. Fortunately, a very simple heat treating process, which can be performed by any bullet caster in a kitchen oven, overcomes all such problems. Not only can cheaper alloys be utilized, but the resulting hardness can equal or exceed the strength of linotype. The basic process involves heating the bullets for a minimum of one half hour, followed by rapid quenching in water.

As previously mentioned, this process should be done after sizing with NO LUBE (for obvious reasons). After the heat treat process, the bullets should be rerun through the sizer with a slightly larger die to be lubed......

The heat treat process is described as:

The heat treatment is accomplished by heating the bullets for a minimum oof 1/2 hour at a temperature just below the start of melting of the alloy, followed by a rapid quench in cool tap water.

To determine the optimum temperature for an alloy, stand a few scrap bullets in the center of the oven where they are easily viewed. A shallow pan no longer used for cooking serves as a suitable container. (Note: always place the container in the SAME LOCATION near the center of the oven to avoid hot spots. Once the optimum temperature has been determined, place the bullets to be heat treated in that SAME LOCATION. It is also good to place a 12" square of aluminum foil on the oven rack, shiny side down. This reflects the direct heat of the oven and keeps the bullets from over heating.) Raise the oven temperature in small rements starting from about 425 degrees F. Hold each higher temperature for a minimum of 15 minutes and watch for signs of the bullets slumping or surface wrinkling. This is the onset of melting. Now back the temperature down in smaller increments until the container with a fresh bullet standing in it can be repeatedly taken out and replaced in the oven without signs of melting. If the alloy is changed, recheck the oven temperature with a few scrap bullets cast from the new alloy. This technique is actually superior to using a fancy thermometer since it automatically takes into account variations in oven temperature.

Bullets should be well supported during heat treatment, lying on their sides and no more than two layers deep. Remember, the hot bullets are vey soft and may be damaged during heat treatment if they shift around. The best container is a wire basket made from 1/4" wire mesh purchased at the hardware store. The ridges in the wire help keep the bullets from moving and the open structure permits generous water movement through the bullets for an effective quench. Make certain the basket is small enough to easily drop to the bottom of the quenching bucket. A wire bail attached to the basket makes for safe and easy handling in and out of the oven.

With the oven preheated, place the basket of bullets on the aluminum foil in its proper location in the oven and let heat for a minimum of 1/2 hour. A somewhat longer heating does no harm. While the bullets are heating, position a bucket of tap water close to the oven. After heating, open the oven door and quickly get the basket into the water. Speed is the all-important factor in quenching; there simply is no way that the quench can be too fast.

Don't leave the bullets in the water as this will cause them to corrode, sometimes within a few hours depending on the water chemistry.

[grin]
 

Bob J

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Sorting Wheel Weights

Excellent thread on Cast Boolits by 380 Super Auto on sorting your Wheel Weights....

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40765

I did some sorting and smelting yesterday. I have found a new supplier for free wheel weights. It's fairly small, but regular. I was surprised about the number of zinc and steel wheel weights that I found. Anyway, I learned a few things and I wanted to share with some photos.

These photos are all zinc or steel wheel weights - all but three of these WWs are ferrous. Some of this has been reported before - my observations are:

1) Zinc or steel wheelweights are perceptibly lighter
2) When you scratch a steel WW, it only removes the paint. With a Zn WW, there is minimal penetration. With Pb alloy WWs, a screwdriver will penetrate deeper.
3) Zinc or steel WWs produce a higher pitched ring when dropped on concrete. Lead WW make more of a thud
4) A couple of them are marked with a Zn - some have a Fe (steel) with a number
5) Some of the Zn and steel WWs use a different method to attach weight metal to clip. I think due to zinc or steel's higher strength, they don't always bury the end of the clip into the WW metal. This is evident on the RH column of weights in the middle picture.
6) When you squeeze them with pliers, lead alloy WWs deform easily and Zn or steel WWs do not. refer to the RH photo

I think item #6 is the most important for me. I usually do other stuff during smelting and I check on the pot every 5 min or so. I use a slow flame on my cooker and I'd rather not hang aroung and suck up the noxious fumes emanating from the cauldron.

So what I did is spend about 20 min for 50# of WWs, checking each weight to make sure it deforms when squeezed with combination pliers. I slipped the jaw to the larger setting and squeezed each WW on the wire cutting (inside) jaws of the pliers. (see RH photo) As I mentioned the lead WWs deform easily and the Zn or steel WWs do not deform at all.

I know this isn't earthshaking, but I wanted to share for those casters who haven't encountered Zn or steel WWs in the mix. This test requires a little time, but it keeps me from worrying about ruining a batch of ingots with zinc.

Obviously, is is important to remove the zinc WWs before the smelt reaches the melting point of zinc ( approx 780F).

I've yet to run into a certified zinc wheel weight, but I have found quite a few steel ones. They are marked "Fe", and are easily verified with a magnet. Place the magnet on the end of the weight, because the clips are all steel.

Another later post which confirms the need to have a good thermometer when you are doing your smelting.... Note to pull out the "stick on" wheel weights.... They are pure lead and not the Lead-Antimony-Tin alloy we typically are looking for....

I just dump all of mine in the smelting pot. I do pick out the stick on WW and if I see a suspicious WW, I’ll pull it out of the mix. I smelt at a low temp. Just as soon as the melt liquidifies I start skimming the clips off. This is where I find my zinc WW's still unmelted. The Zinc WW melts at a higher temp and I keep my temp just hot enough to keep the regular WW liquid. I’ve even run test by throwing known zinc WW’s in the mix and watching them. They never melted.

Sorry but I couldn't upload the photos......;- (
 
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