Build your ideal USPSA Open Gun

[BostonBullit]

To shoot Open at speed, recoil control, grip etc is more important than any other division. The dot give you tremendous amount of feedback. If it isn't tracking straight up and down, then it is difficult to track and therefore shoot

I'm not all that bad with the up/down part, it's keeping the up to a limited motion when using major loads that gets me...that leads to longer re-aquisition times. when I shot an open rig at the class I took I was able to keep the dot visible through the entire cycle, which I attribute to the comp and weight of the gun more than anything I was doing.


so I'm not seeing any love for 9major here....reading on the BE forums it seems to be the flavor of the week, nobody here tempted to switch from 38 super?

 

[eisenhow]

I can already tell you after watching a few matches that I don't have much interest in SS or Revolver, those seem like an exercise in satomacichism. maybe someday I'll see the appeal but for now I'll stick with my 10rnd limit at min.

I'll agree with you on the revolver: with 8 round arrays shooting 6 must suck. However shooting SS major (8-rd mags) I don't think it's that bad. You could shoot SS minor ang get to use 10 rounds.

 

[Supermoto]

I'm not all that bad with the up/down part, it's keeping the up to a limited motion when using major loads that gets me...that leads to longer re-aquisition times.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, are you saying you have difficulty controlling recoil a major power factor? Going Open is not going to help, it will make things worse. Take you time to learn the correct way to shoot before you develop training ruts that take years to get out of.

so I'm not seeing any love for 9major here....reading on the BE forums it seems to be the flavor of the week, nobody here tempted to switch from 38 super?

9 major has less load options and requires more tuning. The cost of rebarreling is more than what you would save in brass if you didn't pick up any spent super brass

 

[BostonBullit]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, are you saying you have difficulty controlling recoil a major power factor? Going Open is not going to help, it will make things worse. Take you time to learn the correct way to shoot before you develop training ruts that take years to get out of.

that's what I mean, when shooting major PF 40 loads I have trouble keeping the muzzle rise to a min. the gun doesn't try to fly out of my hands or anything crazy like that, I just get a lot more vert movement than you more experienced folk. I've been shooting a long time and any ruts are already fairly well worn in, but I did take a few years off and I'm now getting back into it so it's the perfect time to reprogram myself and that's one of the main things I'm trying to do. I generally hit what I'm aiming at, just takes me a while to do it....more so if I have to hit it twice.

I'm not dropping everything and running to the land of comps and optics yet, just educating myself so if I trip over a good deal I can take advantage. Hopefully I can actually start getting to organized practices at my club and have the more experienced shooters learn me what I do wrong and right. I envy the hell out of the guys I see on TV popping away with a 40maj and having the recoil look like a .22!


and back on the more general topic: understood about switching your entire operation over from 38 super to 9 major, but if you had nothing but 40sw gear setup would you be tempted by 9maj at all or are the decreased load options and finicky nature enough to outweigh the ease of finding and cost of brass? not trying to beat a dead horse, just carrying on a conversation on a messageboard

 

[Supermoto]

If I was starting from scratch, I would go super comp. 9mm you still need to cull your brass to the same head stamp in order to get consistent ejection when you run an upright mount. If I ran a 90* cmore or a something with an open ejection port, then I would go 9major. No sense on spending thousands on a gun only to have issues because you cheaped out on brass

 

[GTOShootr]

If you look at the guns the top guys use, they are really not that wild and pretty consistent. 5", SuperComp or .38 TJ, the slides are not overly lightened, Bedell comp or similar, Cmores. It seems like the ones that are "part time" Open competitors are more likely to be the ones using the 90 degree mounts, like Taran or Manny. SVI is the only source that seems to be keeping up the shorter gun. They have their own formula. Commander length shorties aren't all that popular anymore.

I've done both 9major and .38SC. Although I haven't done the math, the cost really feels like a wash. My SuperComp last so long and doesn't require the worries of sorting. 9major was inconsistent. One gun would run like a top. I built an identical twin to it, tuned the same, and it was iffy. .38SC performance was easy to duplicate.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If I was starting from scratch, I would go super comp. 9mm you still need to cull your brass to the same head stamp in order to get consistent ejection when you run an upright mount. If I ran a 90* cmore or a something with an open ejection port, then I would go 9major. No sense on spending thousands on a gun only to have issues because you cheaped out on brass

There are two ways to go super comp:

1. Get the gun built for supercomp

2. Get the gun built for super, and tune it to make sure Supercomp works as well.

#1 is more elegant, but if you get a single round of super in the mix, the gun will jam up as the supercomp/9mm breechface is too small for super.

 

[scottb]

You mean that someone may sell a gun that isn't operating properly???? I'm shocked!

In my case the sale was on the up-and-up. I knew the seller and I knew it was a backup gun so I also knew that backup gun round count is sometimes low. After struggling with an extraction/ejection problem for most of last season - a trip back to SV and an Aftec extractor mod I discovered did the trick. In fact - if I was thinking of buying another used gun one of the first things I'd do would be to call the builder. Any builder that wouldn't be willing to inspect a pistol they built is a pistol I don't want. SV was more than happy to tune my IMM. The best advertising you can buy is a competitor with a gun that works.

 

[scottb]

There are two ways to go super comp:

1. Get the gun built for supercomp

2. Get the gun built for super, and tune it to make sure Supercomp works as well.

#1 is more elegant, but if you get a single round of super in the mix, the gun will jam up as the supercomp/9mm breechface is too small for super.

+1 on Rob's 1. Supercomp (or 38 TJ - very similar to SC) is the way to go. Starline brass is hard to beat with SC.

 

[BostonBullit]

There are two ways to go super comp:

1. Get the gun built for supercomp

2. Get the gun built for super, and tune it to make sure Supercomp works as well.

#1 is more elegant, but if you get a single round of super in the mix, the gun will jam up as the supercomp/9mm breechface is too small for super.

So the one setup can be made to run either flavor of brass reliably?


turning into a fairly good discussion, feel free to throw your $.02 in if you're lurking and have an opinion...and I know there's some lurkers because at the Harvard match today I was shooting the chit with csp02301 when he stopped and said "hey, they're talking about your thread!". good meeting and chattin with ya 9x21 BTW . apologies to the other gentleman, I forgot your screenname but good meeting/chatting with you as well.

and to fork the thread in another direction, what's everyone's opinion on getting an open gun, new or used, from a "name brand" builder vs a local smith? Is there something to be said for picking up a rig built by a local guy you can stop in and drop it off if it needs work vs shipping it out to a SVI/Brazos/Cheely?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So the one setup can be made to run either flavor of brass reliably?

It's not uncommon for 38 super users to use 38 supercomp, however, there are a few differnces:

1. Breechface - you can get away with a 38 super breechface and supercomp brass, but it's a bit larger than the ideal size. Someone using a 38 super who gets a round of supercomp in with their ammo may not even notice. Someone using supercomp, with a supercomp (9mm) breechface will notice if they get a single round of super in their ammo supply as the rim is too large for the breechface.

2. Extractor - either will work, but you're better for with an extractor for supercomp when using that caliber (larger hook)

3. Ejector - Some manufacturers/smiths use a different ejector for super and supercomp

This is one area where the SVI interchangeable breechface shines - you can get one built with a supercomp and a super breechfact (same chamber used for both) for only about $50 more than getting just one. In fact, the first time I took my open gun to the range I had super ammo and the supercomp breechface installed (oops...)

 

[M1911]

Does SVI still have a huge backlog?

 

[Steve_P]

You probably can tune your extractor to run both, however you will be sacrificing some reliability.
I would suggest sticking with supercomp.
Depending on your reloading setup (you do reload, right?), you can use a dillon .223 shell plate which will prevent random 38 super cases from being inserted. Also, the supers don't fit thru the supercomp case feed adaptor very well either.

 

[9X21]

So the one setup can be made to run either flavor of brass reliably?


turning into a fairly good discussion, feel free to throw your $.02 in if you're lurking and have an opinion...and I know there's some lurkers because at the Harvard match today I was shooting the chit with csp02301 when he stopped and said "hey, they're talking about your thread!". good meeting and chattin with ya 9x21 BTW . apologies to the other gentleman, I forgot your screenname but good meeting/chatting with you as well.

and to fork the thread in another direction, what's everyone's opinion on getting an open gun, new or used, from a "name brand" builder vs a local smith? Is there something to be said for picking up a rig built by a local guy you can stop in and drop it off if it needs work vs shipping it out to a SVI/Brazos/Cheely?

"Dan S" is the man you’re forgetting, Dan has been my gun plumber on & off since 1989...
Unfortunately, He no longer does it full time,

Dan has forgotten more about building open guns than anyone currently saying they do in the Northeast.
That aside, great used pistols come up for sale from time to time.
You need to have the cash & knowledge of what you want, or friends to guide you!

If you are on a limited budget, you need to compromise!
If you have cash, just order a Brazos SC in .38 super or super comp.
the difference is only the extactor; you can order both with the pistol when you order it, just a little more cash..
A Brazos SC open gun is $4K dlvd. It is hard chromed & ready to go after break in. (200-400 rounds)
PS
Do the recommended break in, as you saw today,
I did not & paid the price... and that was a brand new Brazo ProSX you may have watched puke on our first stage, that is what I get for rushing quality equipment...

PSS
There are folks willing to help & guide you,
as long as you promise not to turn into an ahole like Superego or Quazimoto!

We helped them & they turned into jerks.
We expect all up & comers to do well...that is why we help.
but when you make it to the top of the scores, don't forget where you came from!

 

[Supermoto]

B]

PSS
There are folks willing to help & guide you,
as long as you promise not to turn into an a**h***s like Superego or Quazimoto!

We helped them & they turned into jerks.
We expect all up & comers to do well...that is why we help.
but when you make it to the top of the scores, don't forget where you came from!

Neither of us turned into jerks, Rob is still a good guy and I was always a jerk

 

[9X21]

funny how you knew who I was talking about!
Don't worry,
you are both jerks,
We all just can't tell at first few meetings....

 

[BostonBullit]

"Dan S" is the man you’re forgetting, Dan has been my gun plumber on & off since 1989...
Unfortunately, He no longer does it full time,

Well then I apologize a second time, I didn't quite catch the name due to my electronic earmuffs misbehaving from the rain....figures.

Thanks for the tips on the range and on the thread. I'm a bit neurotic with things like break-ins, it took me forever to get my AR-10T through the recommended process but I figure they tell you to do it for a reason so.....anyway, I'm starting to get an idea of what is considered good and bad and more importantly why so I'm getting what I hoped for out of this thread. next step is to track down some examples and put a few rounds downrange, then ask a lot more questions.


Thanks Rob - I do like the idea of the SV interchangable breechface, souds like a simple solution to the problem. I also like that they are willing to deal with the extreme BS of MA to make their products available to us here behind the lines, they seem like a good company with a good product. I'll be keeping an eye out for a good used one at a good price, which would be good.

or maybe by the time I figure this all out and have more experience with the sport overall I'll have socked away enough coin to just buy a new one

 

[Lugnut]

funny how you knew who I was talking about!
Don't worry,
you are both jerks,
We all just can't tell at first few meetings....

You and Supermoto have a very peculiar online relationship to say the least. Although Supermoto has his quirks, I've seen him spend shit loads of time really trying to help new shooters. Once he knows you he'll only give bad advice. As much of an ass he can be on this forum and sometimes in person... I think there is a nice guy lurking inside his body somewhere... otherwise Rene would have dumped him in short order!

On the Brazos gun break in... yeah I was with PistolPete when he first got his new Brazos. Thing ran like complete crap. He was freaked out to say the least. Called Brazos and was told to break the gun in like he was told. It was all A+ after the break in! Some of these smiths are damn bright guys.

 

[eisenhow]

You and Supermoto have a very peculiar online relationship to say the least. Although Supermoto has his quirks, I've seen him spend shit loads of time really trying to help new shooters. Once he knows you he'll only give bad advice. As much of an ass he can be on this forum and sometimes in person... I think there is a nice guy lurking inside his body somewhere... otherwise Rene would have dumped him in short order!

Yeah, it's funny. He's perfectly normal on Enos but he photoshops pictures of you on your knees and posts them here . I wonder if it's a big fish little pond thing or a difference in the forum's moderators.

 

[Lugnut]

Yeah, it's funny. He's perfectly normal on Enos but he photoshops pictures of you on your knees and posts them here . I wonder if it's a big fish little pond thing or a difference in the forum's moderators.

Well... he is a little unstable too. Enos wouldn't tolerate it. I take what I said about Mike back... he's a douche.

 

[BostonBullit]

I got out of shooting Open guns years ago, and now only shoot Limited, Single Stack, and Production.

out of curiousity, why no more Open?

 

[Supermoto]

Well... he is a little unstable too. Enos wouldn't tolerate it. I take what I said about Mike back... he's a douche.

There's that master level anger we've been working on, and not IDPA level , but real master level anger... You are progressing well.

 

[Dan S]

out of curiousity, why no more Open?

My hearing is degrading fast enough, but, mainly the recoil impulse bothers my hand and elbow. Now knowing you're shooting an HK, no wonder you have a lot of issues with muzzle rise. Those have to be the least ergonomic guns going, after old Ruger semi auto pistols.

 

[Lugnut]

My hearing is degrading fast enough, but, mainly the recoil impulse bothers my hand and elbow. Now knowing you're shooting an HK, no wonder you have a lot of issues with muzzle rise. Those have to be the least ergonomic guns going, after old Ruger semi auto pistols.

I'm a wuss.... and that's why I like shooting minor. On the muzzle rise.... that's why I love Glocks- the grip is high up close the bore axis that it really helps with with the muzzle flip. I shot my M&P Pro for a while and I was surprised that the flip was noticeably more significant and I think it was due the this. Sigs... they are the worse... but they are so much heavier (some of them anyway) I guess it helps with the flip but they just aren't for me.

Comp guns... if tuned correctly are flat... but you still have the major recoil impulse to deal with... and they are freaking loud as hell. I don't enjoy shooting indoors in general... with an open gun- forget it!

 

[BostonBullit]

My hearing is degrading fast enough, but, mainly the recoil impulse bothers my hand and elbow. Now knowing you're shooting an HK, no wonder you have a lot of issues with muzzle rise. Those have to be the least ergonomic guns going, after old Ruger semi auto pistols.

Gotcha. I guess it's easy to watch people shoot tricked out Open rigs that barely move as they fire (through setup and shooter technique) and associate that with lack of recoil. another variable to factor in and another reason to shoot some different rigs before making any decisions or spending any money. And the noise factor will come into play as well because I have no intention of not shooting once the weather goes to chit in the winter so I'll be moving indoors.

It's funny, I have a SigPro, a Glock 22, and the USP and have always liked shooting the USP the best, to the point where I had the G22 and SigPro up for sale the past few months; the USP just seemed to fit well. even funnier that you mention old Ruger semi-autos as I love shooting my old MkII that I got for xmas when I was 11; maybe I was set on the path liking bad ergonomic designs at a young age. And in reading more, mainly from Bruce Gray, about using HKs in matches I learned that the HK dual spring recoil system buggers with the muzzle path during cycling. some people have described it as a figure 8 motion rather than a straight rise/fall. Bruce went so far as to disable the inner spring when using one in competition. I have no plans for the USP past Production, and as I get the G22 ready for Limited I'll probably give that a go as a Production gun for a match or two and use it in practices. This is the most intensive I have been with my pistol shooting and it's possible that I'll now be able to pickup the differences between the different designs better.

 

[Dan S]

Gotcha. I guess it's easy to watch people shoot tricked out Open rigs that barely move as they fire (through setup and shooter technique) and associate that with lack of recoil.

If you watched a buddy of mine shoot a 5" Colt Government Model, shooting OLD POWER FACTOR ammo, you'd think the gun didn't recoil. The fact he's an old Grand Master might have something to do with it.
In reading articles, whether it's on the internet or magazines, believe half of it, and question 2/3 of what's left.
The old Ruger I was referring to was the P89. The Mk series .22's were well designed. Probably due to Bill Ruger doing the design, rather than an engineer that probably didn't shoot.

 

[BostonBullit]

If you watched a buddy of mine shoot a 5" Colt Government Model, shooting OLD POWER FACTOR ammo, you'd think the gun didn't recoil. The fact he's an old Grand Master might have something to do with it.
In reading articles, whether it's on the internet or magazines, believe half of it, and question 2/3 of what's left.
The old Ruger I was referring to was the P89. The Mk series .22's were well designed. Probably due to Bill Ruger doing the design, rather than an engineer that probably didn't shoot.

I was talking to another shooter, whose name I of course forget (I'm REALLY bad with names), after we shot our last stage about how his Infinity barely moved at all as he shot. he said "yea it's major pf ammo but I'm a big guy and shoot a lot so that has a lot to do with it". not much replacement for proper training, you can throw money at it to some degree but it's not like picking up a $5000 Brazos will instantly turn a C shooter in to a GM. It probably seems from some of my posts that I don't get that aspect but I do.

I know some took issue with the MKII grip angle and much prefer the 22/45 but the good ol MkII has always pointed well for me....and damn if I don't love reeling off a full mag at a piece of steel as fast as I can and hearing the tink tink tink tink. I need to learn to control the larger calibers so I can do the same thing with those. Never tried the P89, didn't much like the look of it when it came out so I never bothered.

 

[Dan S]

I was talking to another shooter, whose name I of course forget (I'm REALLY bad with names), after we shot our last stage about how his Infinity barely moved at all as he shot. he said "yea it's major pf ammo but I'm a big guy and shoot a lot so that has a lot to do with it". not much replacement for proper training, you can throw money at it to some degree but it's not like picking up a $5000 Brazos will instantly turn a C shooter in to a GM. It probably seems from some of my posts that I don't get that aspect but I do.

That was Curt you were speaking with. If you look at his scores, the gun didn't help him either. Gun weight may have some impact, but not entirely. The 6" limited gun that I shoot, weight 35 ounces. Most guys shooting limited, are using pistols that are around 3.5 ounces or more heavier. It's not the gun weight that keeps me where I am. I think age has a bunch to do with it, and very little practice.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Pete, be patient and keep looking/asking, the right deal will come along but the process can't be rushed. I fell into my open division rig from a simple comment made by my brother-in-law about this funny looking gun at a local shop. Thus began my love affair with Caspians. My open gun will reliably feed and function with .38 Super, Super Comp, TJ, and even the odd piece of 9x23 that gets through my press.
It is an old school steel frame full size Caspian just like the one you fired in the class. See you one the range.

 

[BostonBullit]

Curt, yup, that sounds familiar. nice guy, as are most that I've met in this sport, and he was trying to go like a bat outta hell on our last stage (stage 2) and I think it bit him a little. After my issues last match with misses and no-shoots I took the slow and steady approach and managed to punch a quarter size hole in the center A zone of one of the targets on the same stage; which probably means I was going TOO slow and steady!

Was wondering when you were going to wander by the thread Mike, thanks for the advice thus far and getting me addicted to this whole thing during that class. While patience isn't my strong suit I'm in no big hurry to assemble an Open rig; still plenty to learn and do in Production and maybe Limited with the gear I already have. The right gun will find me eventually...