Borrowing Muzzleloader for Deer Season

[FN atic]

This December I was lucky enough to score the majority of the Muzzleloader season off from work. I don’t own a muzzle loader but my father in law does who I would go with but he is working Some of the days I plan on going out.

Both of us have unrestricted ltc and found this on the mass gov website about borrowing. I didn’t see anything stating this isn’t allowed but does anyone have any experience with Law enforcement/game warden run ins with the same situation?

 

[76Too]

It’s not a firearm sir. Muzzle loaders are exempt from all the garbage laws of your police state.

Have fun and good luck hunting.

 

[moojpg2]

It's perfectly legal to loan a gun or borrow one, long as the person borrowing has the proper license to cover being in possession of it. Muzzle loader isn't legally a firearm anyway, but you have your LTC so you are fine.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I will add that Massachusetts has a “lesser weapons“ regulation for hunting So you can use the ML during shotgun season if you want to as well.

Don’t forget your ML stamp.

Bob

 

[AHM]

... I don’t own a muzzle loader but my father in law does ...

So he owns a rifle.

MGL Ch. 140 §121 Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions

Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131Y, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the​

context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:—​

...​

''Rifle'', a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and​

capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.​

...​

... Both of us have unrestricted ltc and found this on the mass gov website about borrowing. I didn’t see anything stating this isn’t allowed ...

It's right in the statute you quoted. (Rendered moot by @MisterHappy 's analysis below, sigh).

MGL Ch. 140 §131 Licenses to carry firearms; conditions and restrictions

Section 131. All licenses to carry firearms shall be designated Class A or Class B, and the​

issuance and possession of any such license shall be subject to the following conditions and​

restrictions:​

(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to ... borrow, ...: ... (ii) rifles ..., including ...​

ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes; ...​

 

[MisterHappy]

So he owns a rifle.

MGL Ch. 140 §121 Firearms sales; definitions; antique firearms; application of law; exceptions

Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131Y, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the​

context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:—​

...​

''Rifle'', a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and​

capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.​

...​

It's right in the statute you quoted.

MGL Ch. 140 §131 Licenses to carry firearms; conditions and restrictions

Section 131. All licenses to carry firearms shall be designated Class A or Class B, and the​

issuance and possession of any such license shall be subject to the following conditions and​

restrictions:​

(a) A Class A license shall entitle a holder thereof to ... borrow, ...: ... (ii) rifles ..., including ...​

ammunition therefor, for all lawful purposes; ...​

Um....he does NOT have a "rifle", per same piece of MGLs that you cite.


The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:


(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;


(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

"Primitive" "rifles" are not "rifles". For the same reason that a Firearms Identification Card does not permit you to possess a "Firearm" (meaning a handgun) in the DPRM, where conventional definitions of words no longer apply.

As for a cop /EPO checking on you, all that matters is that you have the correct permission slip - a bill of sale for the toy you have is not required.

If you're new to the ML, shoot it at the range, before you go into the woods. Make sure you know how to use it, and how to shoot it, for an ethical shot. Good luck.

 

[AHM]

Um....he does NOT have a "rifle", per same piece of MGLs that you cite.

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

Feh and dammit.

I knew there was a loophole (used among other people, by unsuitables),
but I didn't know/remember it was down there at the bottom.


But not every law is governed by those definitions,
and not every law has an exception for muzzleloaders.
For example...

"Primitive" "rifles" are not "rifles". For the same reason that a Firearms Identification Card does not permit you to possess a "Firearm" (meaning a handgun) in the DPRM, where conventional definitions of words no longer apply.

...is it legal to drive on the grounds of a gun club with a loaded flintlock rifle in the car?

Spoiler

Ch. 131 §63 Loaded shotgun or rifle in motor vehicle, aircraft or motorboat

A person ... shall not, except upon land owned or occupied by him, have in his possession or under his control in or on any motor vehicle ... a loaded ... rifle, ...; ...​

​

Anyhow...

Q: So are muzzleloaders...

1. Legal to borrow because there's permission granted in some other corner of the law, or
2. Legal to borrow because anything not outlawed is legal, or
3. Legal to borrow because absolutely no one realizes they're excluded from Ch. 140 §131 (a)(ii), or
4. Not legal to borrow because there's no law permitting it?

If you're new to the ML, shoot it at the range, before you go into the woods. Make sure you know how to use it, and how to shoot it, for an ethical shot. Good luck.

As for a cop /EPO checking on you, all that matters is that you have the correct permission slip - a bill of sale for the toy you have is not required.

^ All good, thanks much.

 

[Sparkey]

What type of world are we living in where people have to worry about borrowing a muzzle loader to go deer hunting

 

[MisterHappy]

Feh and dammit.

I knew there was a loophole (used among other people, by unsuitables),
but I didn't know/remember it was down there at the bottom.


But not every law is governed by those definitions,
and not every law has an exception for muzzleloaders.
For example...


...is it legal to drive on the grounds of a gun club with a loaded flintlock rifle in the car?

Spoiler

Ch. 131 §63 Loaded shotgun or rifle in motor vehicle, aircraft or motorboat

A person ... shall not, except upon land owned or occupied by him, have in his possession or under his control in or on any motor vehicle ... a loaded ... rifle, ...; ...​

Per that law, I'd say that if you're a member of said Club, you could be construed as an "Owner" or "Occupant", so yes, I'd say so, especially as a primitive arm is neither a shotgun nor rifle per MGLs. Of course....why are you doing that, in the first place?

​

Anyhow...

Q: So are muzzleloaders...

1. Legal to borrow because there's permission granted in some other corner of the law, or NO
2. Legal to borrow because anything not outlawed is legal, or YES
3. Legal to borrow because absolutely no one realizes they're excluded from Ch. 140 §131 (a)(ii), or ?
4. Not legal to borrow because there's no law permitting it? Generally laws prohibit; they don't permit

Muzzle-loaders are NOT "firearms", and require neither FID nor LTC to possess in Mass., so there's no problem with loaning them.



^ All good, thanks much.

 

[Beretta92FS]

But you can’t buy primers for that muzzleloader in MA without an FID or LTC.

 

[MisterHappy]

But you can’t buy primers for that muzzleloader in MA without an FID or LTC.

You can't BUY Powder, Cap, Primer, or ball for a BP in Mass. without an FID or better. Go to Kittery, or NH.

You need an FID or better to possess a 209 primer for an in-line, in Mass., but not for cap, BP/substitute, or ball.

 

[AHM]

Per that law, I'd say that if you're a member of said Club, you could be construed as an "Owner" or "Occupant", ...

Nah, that oughta mean "name on a deed or a tenant".
And hopefully includes other members of the household.
But feel free to substitute "driving around the Market Basket parking lot",
or even "parking in your neighbor's back yard", if you want.
It's just a concrete example of a place that's not a public way,
and that you don't own or rent.

... especially as a primitive arm is neither a shotgun nor rifle per MGLs

The exceptions in Ch. 140 §121 that you kindly pointed out
only apply to a few sections in Ch. 140.

That loaded transport law is in Ch. 131.

Is there some other exception for Ch. 131?
I'm not seeing yet another definition of "rifle" in another chapter,
let alone yet another definition of "muzzleloading" anything.

Of course....why are you doing that, in the first place?

Prudent people aren't doing that,
but there's a big supply of the other kind of people.

Generally laws prohibit; they don't permit

Generally.
And yet Ch. 140 §131 goes out of its way to list
some kinds of people that are entitled (permitted) to borrow rifles.
Even though there are other statutes outlawing possession of things by the unlicensed.
Overkill much?

 

[MisterHappy]

Well, I've heard that cops have been interpreting parking lots as "public ways," and hassling people teaching kids to drive in parking lots, as they connect to the roads So what's "private" may not be.

I'm glad that my kid had the Club. He drove from the Trap field to the Clubhouse, and pulled up. One of the older members said, "Learning to drive at the Club? Good. That's what I did," and he went inside.

To cut to the chase....IMO it's not a big deal. If you're a knucklehead, you deserve to pay for stupid. If you're not, and don't do pointless stuff, you'll be fine. If you're on private property, in a golf cart, with a muzzle-loader, and end up talking to John Law, well......it's going to be interesting, no matter what.

 

[Toast]

Assuming you have a LTC plus a hunting license and are transporting / carrying it correctly, what do you expect to happen? I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never carried a receipt on me when I was hunting, nor when I'm driving to the range with a truck full of properly secured firearms, nor if I'm carrying concealed.

If it's legal for you to be holding what you're holding where you're holding it and can show the same, I can't see how a LEO/EP would go past it.

 

[TrackDayRdr]

Can a youth hunter under 18 without an FID or LTC hunt the shotgun season with a black powder rifle?

 

[whacko]

Can a youth hunter under 18 without an FID or LTC hunt the shotgun season with a black powder rifle?

If it takes old school caps and not 209 primers I'd say yes.....have to be 12 or older to hunt at all even with an adult. 15 they'll need a hunting license.....and an fid for a fire arm...but like you said no fid a muzzleoader is not a fire arm......possession of 209 primers would be the only issue. Need an fid to possess the 209 primers. Old school caps don't require an fid to possess.



My son hunted alone with a shotgun at 16 with a permisson slip from me in his pocket on his fid and hunting license.

 

[whacko]

I'm not sure what the fuss is here about borrowing guns. Is there some case out there where someone had fire arm on them and the proper license to posess what they had and the popo ran the sn to ensure it was registered to the individual?

 

[AHM]

Is there some case out there where someone had fire arm on them and the proper license to posess what they had and the popo ran the sn to ensure it was registered to the individual?

That would be embarrassing,
because Massachusetts doesn't register guns.

 

[MisterHappy]

Can a youth hunter under 18 without an FID or LTC hunt the shotgun season with a black powder rifle?

Yes. Assuming that they have a hunting license, of course. This should have been covered in the Hunter Ed course.

 

[MisterHappy]

Yes. Assuming that they have a hunting license, of course, and bear in mind the 209 primer issue, noted above. This should have been covered in the Hunter Ed course.

 

[TrackDayRdr]

Yes. Assuming that they have a hunting license, of course. This should have been covered in the Hunter Ed course.

We're struggling to find a hunter ed course.

 

[AHM]

We're struggling to find a hunter ed course.

IIRC, somewhere on NES it's said that
Texas(?) is holding online courses
that are accepted by Mass.

 

[Vermonster]

I believe Maine is fully online this year for hunters age 16 and over.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

We're struggling to find a hunter ed course.

Texas and Maine as posted above.

The downside is that they aren’t free like the Mass Hunter Ed Course and they don’t cover the Mass specific laws/regs so make sure that you read the abstracts thoroughly.

Bob

 

[MisterHappy]

Texas and Maine as posted above.

The downside is that they aren’t free like the Mass Hunter Ed Course and they don’t cover the Mass specific laws/regs so make sure that you read the abstracts thoroughly.

Bob

THIS it the big issue. Especially with the gun laws in the DPRM.

As for the Mass courses, the gathering size is the issue with holding classes...