Border Patrol agent shoots and wounds Mexican rock thrower at US-Mexico line.

[PATRON]

The rock was not hurt but was last seen landing on US soil near a Taco Bell. They will never find it.

 

[9000S]

Ahem...

I'll concur.

The Border Patrolman apparently lost his temper and went out of control.

Less than lethal weapons were there. THat's what should have been used.

Shooting a rock thrower is NOT right, even if it is a Mexican trying to illegally cross the border.

I am now a border patrol agent. I have seen lots of internal photographs and stats. concerning rockings, particularly here in douglas AZ.
A rock is a lethal weapon end of story.
Agents have been killed by rocks. Agents have been brain damaged by rocks. Agents have been permanently disfigured by them.
Part of the training is telling the throwers to drop the rocks. If they don't and persist in throwing, that their choice. Ask. Tell. Make. If a man with a gun pointed at me tells me to stop doing something, I'm listening. Also, I think more people have died by rocks than any other weapon in history.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/BorderWar/ARIZONA/ROCKPHOTOS/InteriorConsole011601-3.gif
http://www.americanpatrol.com/BorderWar/ARIZONA/ROCKPHOTOS/BloodyPprwork011601-6.gif

 

[Dench]

you use the least force as possible in the situation, without getting yourself injured. you know that, i know that. shooting every single person that has a deadly weapon is absolutely asinine when less then lethal weapons are provided.

 

[theGringo]

Fact Check Requested

I am now a border patrol agent. I have seen lots of internal photographs and stats. concerning rockings, particularly here in douglas AZ.
A rock is a lethal weapon end of story.
Agents have been killed by rocks. Agents have been brain damaged by rocks. Agents have been permanently disfigured by them.
Part of the training is telling the throwers to drop the rocks. If they don't and persist in throwing, that their choice. Ask. Tell. Make. If a man with a gun pointed at me tells me to stop doing something, I'm listening. Also, I think more people have died by rocks than any other weapon in history.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/BorderWar/ARIZONA/ROCKPHOTOS/InteriorConsole011601-3.gif
http://www.americanpatrol.com/BorderWar/ARIZONA/ROCKPHOTOS/BloodyPprwork011601-6.gif

I know that a rock can have lethal effect, and I'm not qualified to second guess the actions of the Border Patrol Agent in this instance. I think we'll need to see what additional information emerges. But I've searched the database of Agents who've died in the line of duty, going back to 1919, and I don't see any killed by thrown projectiles.

The pictures you've posted don't have any attribution associated with them. Might be the result of rocks thrown at the border, or not.

The website they seem to be drawn from seems a little ... dubious, as does the sponsor, Glenn Spencer.

The database I referenced can be found here:
http://www.borderpatrolmuseum.com/memorials.asp

 

[Nickle]

you use the least force as possible in the situation, without getting yourself injured. you know that, i know that. shooting every single person that has a deadly weapon is absolutely asinine when less then lethal weapons are provided.

Yup, that's my opinion as well.

"'You want a fight? You want a war? Let's do it,'" Martinez, 52, quoted the agent as saying.

Hmm, now I'm not saying Martinez is telling the truth, but assuming he is, that makes this incident an Anger Management issue, with NO justification for shooting.

Sure doesn't sound like "fearing his life" to me. Sounds more like "pissed off at a rock thrower".

However, we truly don't have all the facts. We have opinions. During the certain investigation, I'm sure the truth will come out, or a reasonable facsimile of it.

 

[9000S]

yea...

Agreed. The whole story isn't being told here, and if he has enough time to spout diatribe at the throwers he should have been creating distance as well. Also it doesnt appear he shot at EVERY one throwing rocks, he only hit one person. "They said Border Patrol agents tried to disperse the crowd with pepper spray bullets" So they did use non-lethal items at first, then they escalated to lethal. When rocks are being thrown given the distance, (which isnt stated here) but if pepperball is being used its within 50 yards (assumption, havent had the PLS training yet) Also it doesn't mention if and how the situation escalated to require another force item. The paper stated "Border Patrol agents routinely get rocks, bottles and bricks thrown at them from people in Tijuana hoping to distract the agents long enough to jump the fence." Thats not the only reason they throw them... some are just out for blood. Due to a recent influx of trainees and plans implemented those being caught have getting more and more violent. San Diego-area agents have been attacked more than 330 times since October, compared with 254 times for the previous 12-month period, according to Reed.
In the end his verbage was definately un-necessary, but I don't know if his actions were un-reasonable.
Border Patrol is the only agency where single agents are routinely outnumbered as high as 50-1 with backup being far away and they execute arrests and crowd control. I just did a group of 10 solo yesterday, and I haven't even finished my 2nd month here.
Not being there I prefer to withhold harsher judgments of his actions. As for the pictures yes the site is dubious, but I have seen those in training at the academy in power-points along with others that I cant access at the moment. Point is what may seem overkill actually de-escalates a situation the fastest way possible with the least amount injury.

 

[theGringo]

Point is what may seem overkill actually de-escalates a situation the fastest way possible with the least amount injury.

Yes, shooting the assailant is a fairly certain way to "de-escalate a situation", at least from the assailant's point of view. But if his twenty or fifty buddies decide to contest the justification for the shooting, well you had better have some spare magazines, no?

 

[KMaurer]

I don't have enough information to make a judgment about this particular case. I can, however make a couple of comments on things that have been posted. First, I'm unaware that we've sunk so low that it's now the official policy of US Boarder Patrol agents to retreat (i.e., "create distance") in the face of armed assault by persons attempting to cross the boarder illegally. I know that we've imprisoned two agents for returning fire from an escaping drug smuggler, even though doing so required the US Attorney to grant the smuggler total immunity from prosecution and a free pass to cross the boarder (which he used to bring in more drugs), but this would be yet another step down for us. Second, if a group of people are assaulting you and you respond by shooting the most aggressive loud-mouth in the bunch, there's a strong tendency for the others to think twice before continuing or escalating the assault. They may well flap their jaws more vigorously, but it usually accompanied by slow movement away from you.

Ken

 

[Jose]

you use the least force as possible in the situation, without getting yourself injured. you know that, i know that. shooting every single person that has a deadly weapon is absolutely asinine when less then lethal weapons are provided.

Are you a Border Patrolman?

No?

So is it safe to assume you know next to shit about their RoE. Right?

 

[Never]

Edgar Israel Ortega Chavez was shot Tuesday night in his left buttocks and was in stable condition,

ROFL

Sorry, but he should have been smarter. He got what he was asking for. Besides, I am a nationalist and think we should all seal our borders. "They" (policy makers) will not stop until there is no diversity left on earth. Stop running from your country...stay there and make it a better place to live. You know, be a man.

 

[Dench]

Are you a Border Patrolman?

No?

So is it safe to assume you know next to shit about their RoE. Right?

jose i can make a ass out of you for the 4th time in less then 45 days if you want. every time you challenge me, i reply and you disappear.

the RoE is similar for crowd control in almost all instances, from my experiance its not drastically different.

your a idiot, go find a ohio gun site & shut it.

 

[Jose]

jose i can make a ass out of you for the 4th time in less then 45 days if you want. every time you challenge me, i reply and you disappear.

the RoE is similar for crowd control in almost all instances, from my experiance its not drastically different.

your a idiot, go find a ohio gun site & shut it.

So in essence, you do not know what the Border Patrol RoEs are. You are just shooting off your mouth.

I've never seen you say anything credible here. Why should you start now.

You served a couple of years in the Army. BFD. Now that makes you an expert on the use of force under all circumstances. Not.

Got any law enforcement credentials? The ones that come from a box of cheerios or a CCW badge don't count.

 

[Dench]

Got any law enforcement credentials? The ones that come from a box of cheerios or a CCW badge don't count.

here goes;
1: i have over 10 hours of traning with the mass state police roit control team (2004)
2: i have over 50 hours of roit control training (2004, 2006)
3: i lost count of how many RoE classes i sat through (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007)

and get ready for this one jose
i was a MP overseas in a battalion that was in charge of crowd control and roit control.

thats the 4th time youve been shut down.

 

[Jose]

here goes;
1: i have over 10 hours of traning with the mass state police roit control team (2004)
2: i have over 50 hours of roit control training (2004, 2006)
3: i lost count of how many RoE classes i sat through (2004, 2006, 2007)

and get ready for this one jose
i was a MP overseas in a battalion that was in charge of crowd control and roit control.

thats number 4th time youve been shut down.

None of which mean shit from shinola to the US Border Patrol.

If you are not a USBP agent, you don't know anything about what they are or are not allowed to do in this situation. You obviously think you do, but you are wrong.

9000S, which obviously has not been on the job very long, has probably forgotten more about USBP policy, RoE, and regulations than you (not an agent) will ever know.

Next.

 

[theGringo]

1: i have over 10 hours of traning with the mass state police roit control team (2004)
2: i have over 50 hours of roit control training (2004, 2006)
3: i lost count of how many RoE classes i sat through (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007)

That's nuthin'! Didja ever teach a kindergarten class for a week? Well did ya? Huh?!

 

[Admin]