Blown out Primers on Factory XM193F

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Today I went to sight in my new red dot optic on one of my AR's

M&P Lower with a CMMG complete upper.
I shot 20 rounds through it when i picked up some of the brass and saw that some of the primers had blown out.

I bought an entire case of this stuff.
Is the entire case a loss or would you expect Federal to make an attempt at fixing this situation?

Is there anything hardware-wise that could cause this?

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Did you find the spent primers inside your lower?

Damn, I knew federal 5.56 had loose pockets, but I had no idea they were that loose. [laugh]

-Mike
 
XM193 is one of the only 5.56 rounds I won't run through my M4. I've always found it to be too hot with excessive spent gasses & muzzle flash.
 
Did you find the spent primers inside your lower?

Damn, I knew federal 5.56 had loose pockets, but I had no idea they were that loose. [laugh]

-Mike

On the second to last round I fired I had a jam, looked inside and found a primer had been smashed by the bolt. Nothing was inside the lower. I realized more were blown out when I was collecting brass.

XM193 is one of the only 5.56 rounds I won't run through my M4. I've always found it to be too hot with excessive spent gasses & muzzle flash.
What do you run instead?

Cmmg are known to have tight chambers, this will cause blown primers. Get the chamber reamed
Thanks. I'll look into that.

Any recommendations on who to do the work in my area?
 
Is the gun new? What kind of chamber is it? Hardware wise it could be the headspace is a little off or that the throat is a little short. Could also be a bad batch of overpressure ammo.

B
 
What do you run instead?

I found my M4 likes PMC. Not the new bronze line stuff, the original stuff that came in the black red & white boxes. I'm still working on a stash I bought back in the day. It's almost gone now. I've read reviews on the PMC Bronze line & people seem to think it's underpowered and dirty.
Next I'll try Privi that I have a few cases of. No experience with it yet but it gets good reviews.
 
Try the same ammo on another rifle. If the ammo run flawlessly, problem will be on your current rifle.


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Is the gun new? What kind of chamber is it? Hardware wise it could be the headspace is a little off or that the throat is a little short. Could also be a bad batch of overpressure ammo.

B

I bought the upper as a complete CMMG. I believe it to be 5.56 as I think all of CMMG's are chambered for 5.56.
Supposedly everything is headspaced before selling.

I found my M4 likes PMC. Not the new bronze line stuff, the original stuff that came in the black red & white boxes. I'm still working on a stash I bought back in the day. It's almost gone now. I've read reviews on the PMC Bronze line & people seem to think it's underpowered and dirty.
Next I'll try Privi that I have a few cases of. No experience with it yet but it gets good reviews.

The only thing any of my rifles ever had an issue is with Wolf ammo. I buy XM193 because it's always been reliable for me and I like the brass.

could it possibly be a .223 sami chamber ?

That was my first thought as well. is that CMMG barrel chambered in 5.56 or 223 ??


ETA: On the CMMG website they list their complete uppers and barrels with a 5.56 chamber, so that probably isn't the problem.

CMMG's website says they chamber for 5.56 and also that they engrave their barrels...but I can't find any engraving.

Try the same ammo on another rifle. If the ammo run flawlessly, problem will be on your current rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's not a bad idea.
 
CMMG's website says they chamber for 5.56 and also that they engrave their barrels...but I can't find any engraving.

I have a CMMG 16in carbine length barrel, it was an over-run they had a special on last year. It was sold as a 1/9 5.56mm chamber, chrome lned chamber, not barrel, and has NO markings on it...

Then, I have seen other CMMG barrels with "CMMG" and the twist rate, and CL (if aplicable) engraved (more looks like stamped) on the barrel in front of the gas block...
 
Zooming in does show signs of crimping but the crimps don't look adequate. I'm not home so I can't grab a box to compare but the crimp doesn't seem to be as deep as I recall. Certainly not on the primerless case.
Look crimped to me - at least the ones where the primer stayed in. The other one
looks like a suspicious crimp though. It could be the pic - or not?

Primers.jpg
 
Is the entire case a loss or would you expect Federal to make an attempt at fixing this situation?
When I had some ammo problems with Federal, they were highly interested and asked me to send them samples which they replaced by lots more fresh ammo. Worth at least asking if they have a known bad batch.
 
I went back to the range with a bit of XM193 from my lot and some from my brother's.

10 rounds were fired from his lot. No issues.
5 rounds were fired from my lot and I had 1 blown primer and I stopped there.

I checked the barrel again and found that it is in fact a 1 in 7 twist 5.56 barrel.

My guess is that the ammo is bad and I'll be contacting Federal tomorrow about it.

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XM193 are lot rejects,those things happen.

Yes, but there are varying grades of rejects. What kind of sucks now is Federal doesn't make like 4 different grades of rejects now, just "XM193F" and that's basically it... all the letter seems to mean now is what kind of box it came in.

-Mike
 
Update:

Federal Premium sent a shipping label to me and had the ammo shipped back. This was maybe 3 weeks ago.
3 days ago I receive a package and it is 1000rds of American Eagle 223.

Today I received a letter saying that they tested the XM193 and it was within their specs...and that occasionally some manufacturers label their barrels as 5.56 but they are actually 2.23.

So perhaps the chamber is too tight and needs to be reamed as Supermoto suggested.
What a pain in the ass.
 
got a stoney point gauge? (and a caliper?).

take a fired case and test dimensions of that fired case. now take a fired case out of your brothers rifle. compare em.

theres a number of things that can make a primer come out....although most of the time it's an overpressure load. i've actually had good luck with a Tubb CS buffer spring in my rifles (and a heavier than average carrier). delaying the bolt unlocking (even a couple of milliseconds) gives the bullet time to leave the barrel before the bolt carrier starts moving back, tending to help primers stay where they belong.
 
got a stoney point gauge? (and a caliper?).

take a fired case and test dimensions of that fired case. now take a fired case out of your brothers rifle. compare em.

theres a number of things that can make a primer come out....although most of the time it's an overpressure load. i've actually had good luck with a Tubb CS buffer spring in my rifles (and a heavier than average carrier). delaying the bolt unlocking (even a couple of milliseconds) gives the bullet time to leave the barrel before the bolt carrier starts moving back, tending to help primers stay where they belong.

I don't have a stoney point gauge but I do have a caliper.

That's good advice to compare the spent cases.

I'm not so concerned about the primers coming out but rather the reason they are. I need to know this rifle is safe shooting 5.56.
 
Some chambers are just tighter than others. Going from a compasslake wylde chamber to a WOA wylde, I had to bump my shoulders back another .004", my fired cases were actually electing wither shorter dimensions than my sized/loaded ammunition. The bcg had enough oomph to chamber the cases and squish the shoulders a bit...but I noticed that live ammo was considerably more difficult to extract. If you want, shoot me a pm. We'll check out your rifle with my gauges.
 
Gauge the chamber to find out,most non Mil-spec guns are not truely chambered in 5.56. In the last two years my agency has fired over 20,000 rounds of XM and have had zero issues. YMMV. Blown primers is a sign of a tight chamber. Ned Christian at Michiguns sells chamber gauges and reamers. Last year when I attened the Colt Armorers class. On the last day guys brought in there personal AR's, almost every non colt's chamber was not truely 5.56 some were close, but close doesnt always cut it. A few quick passes with a 5.56 chamber reamer should solve your issue. Just be aware that if your guns chamber is chrome lined the reamer will remove some of the hardchrome. This should not be an issue as there are lots of AR Barrels & chambers that are not hard chromed. Also a hard chromed chamber will cause the reamer to wear fatser then a non chromed chamber.
 
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Gauge the chamber to find out,most non Mil-spec guns are not truely chambered in 5.56. In the last two years my agency has fired over 20,000 rounds of XM and have had zero issues. YMMV. Blown primers is a sign of a tight chamber. Ned Christian at Michiguns sells chamber gauges and reamers. Last year when I attened the Colt Armorers class. On the last day guys brought in there personal AR's, almost every non colt's chamber was not truely 5.56 some were close, but close doesnt always cut it. A few quick passes with a 5.56 chamber reamer should solve your issue. Just be aware that if your guns chamber is chrome lined the reamer will remove some of the hardchrome. This should not be an issue as there are lots of AR Barrels & chambers that are not hard chromed. Also a hard chromed chamber will cause the reamer to wear fatser then a non chromed chamber.


reaming the chamber should absolutely NOT be neccessary. hell, the chambers most of us shooter (highpower shooters) are on the "tight" side, and our ammo would be considered by most to be "overly warm" (77gr bullet going ~ 2825fps, 80gr'er going just over 2920fps out of my 26" barrel).....and the only time i've ever blown a primer was when i punched the wrong value in on my chargemaster, and tried to stuff 25.6gr of RE15 under an 80gr bullet. (note: dont do that).

de, did you happen to save a couple of rounds of the "bad" ammo? if you did, pull it down, weigh the powder in there. last i'd checked, federal was using a ball/stick blend, similiar to what Atlanta Arms is manf'ing now.
 
Jasper, I don't have any of those rounds. They were all sent back (Didn't want to mix any bad ammo with my good ammo)
 
reaming the chamber should absolutely NOT be neccessary. hell, the chambers most of us shooter (highpower shooters) are on the "tight" side, and our ammo would be considered by most to be "overly warm" (77gr bullet going ~ 2825fps, 80gr'er going just over 2920fps out of my 26" barrel).....
.

But don't your chambers have a longer leade to accommodate for the longer bullet?
 
Do what you want but three of the country's best AR 15 armorers all are on the same page,Ned Christiansen , Dean Caputo and Frank Moody all have dealt with this issue in th same manor. Also XM is not reject ammo according to Federal :

All our Xm193 ammunition is manufactured by LCAAP and is first
production run, the XM193 is a 5.56 cartridge and is not interchangeable
with the 223. The Xm855 is also first production run made by LCAAP in
5.56 and is load with a steel penetrating bullet.

Thank you

From Ned Christiansen:
Neck and Throat 5.56 Reamer

A common problem when firing 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an AR15 with a SAAMI-spec .223 chamber, is that once in a while a spent primer will fall out of a case as it is extracted. Sometimes the primers fall clear and there's no problem, other times they will go under the trigger and get wedged, rendereing the rifle inoperable. I've seen some extreme cases of this where the hammer and trigger were actually hard to get out. I've seen them get wedged between the charging handle and the inside of the receiver, with the bolt out of battery, so that the gun had to have the stock removed so the bolt could be removed to clear the primer. It is not unknown for the primer anvil get stuck on the tubular portion of the carrier key! Popped primers are due in part to the tighter, shorter freebore and shorter, more abrupt throat of the .223 chamber, causing a pressure spike with the hotter, mil- spec ammo. This reamer will address these areas as well as making sure the neck diameter is not too tight or short, without changing headspace. It does not cut the shoulder or anything behind it; it stops off on the shoulder. Of course, whatever rifle you're shooting, you could just look at what's stamped on the barrel-- it might say .223, or it might say 5.56, or it might say nothing. You could call the manufacturer and ask them what chamber you have, but even if you get to talk to somebody who understands the question, they likely don't really know. They may tell you what you want to hear, but truth is, not many AR15 manufacturers make their own barrels. They buy them from someone else, so they don't really, truly know what chamber you have. Some of them will flat decline to discuss it with you.

This reamer is designed as an easy, quick and sure way to know. You just open the upper receiver, remove the bolt group, drop in the reamer with some oil, and slowly turn it in (clockwise only, never reversing it), using a lot of turns and very little pressure. The handle centers itself in the upper receiver. When ithe reamer bottoms out on the chamber's shoulder it will spin freely-- it has stopped cutting and you are done. When you have done this, you know for sure you have a chamber with proper 5.56-plus dimensions in the critical freebore and throat area. Primer popping due to pressure spikes in a short leade will cease, but be advised there can be other factors in popped primers such as hot ammo, hot chambers, and improperly loaded ammo. The new version ($240, shown above) has a redesigned handle that is custom machined from aluminum barstock, so it is quite a bit lighter (handle and reamer weigh less than the original handle alone). It is also shorter to take up less room in your toolbox, and, most importantly, it functions as a storage case for your reamer. When you are finished reaming, simply remove the reamer, reverse it, and insert it into the handle-- your expensive tool is now very well protected and not taking up extra room in your toolbox. There is also a slot in the handle to accept the Allen wrench you need to turn the set screw that retains the reamer. The Allen wrench is retained in the handle so everything you need is right there.

What about chromed-lined chambers? The good news is that in my experience, Colt AR15 chromed barrels have a proper 5.56 chamber. I would consider most others to be suspect. The reamer has been subjected to a secondary heat-treating process, titanium carbo-nitride, which makes it capable of correcting under-spec chromed chambers. Obviously it will do fewer of them, but I have yet to hear of one of my reamers geting dull-- and my personal one has done at least a few dozen chromed chambers. Will removing the chrome be a problem? No. Plenty of AR's don't have chromed bores and chamber and they work fine. I've sectioned some chromed barrels and the chrome doesn't last that long in the throat area anyway. Removing chrome in the chamber won't cause the area to peel like bumper chrome.

Reamer with new lightweight/compact handle that doubles as reamer storage: $240
 
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