Let's just put this to rest: Subduing individuals who aren't in their right mind (for whatever reason) is almost always extremely difficult. Some of my worst memories of working in the ER have to do with helping manage old demented folks.
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Atlanta Police Fatally Shoot Black Man in the Back at Wendy's Drive-Thru
- Thread starter Reptile
- Start date
Why dont they arm ER employees so they can shoot them? Are you suggesting there are other, less than lethal ways to accomplish this?
One of the local ER's security team carries tasers. IMO problem is, once they're used, the patient will be medical...
ETA: Don't read into my post too much. My point was simply that it's a bitch to restrain crazy people. I sure as shit don't advocate for shooting them in the back...
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Deleted member 12999
Now that I think about it, @Picton and I are having a reasonable debate, with our usual sarcasm, and you have to chime in like a hyperbolic douche. I don't go running around questioning the integrity of people who actually have experience in the field being debated. Kindly f*** off with any future desire to chime in with your opinion on my posts. There are dozens of dudes and ladies on this site that know me in real life, and my approach to law enforcement. I'm EXACTLY the kind of cop that you want in your town believe it or not.
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Deleted member 12999
It's funny... as a matter of fact. I started my career at a hospital PD. We were armed and whatnot. I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for the number of times I got called to the ER because nurses were such bitches to people that they would go off, and then the nurse would come running to us. I used to go in and talk with the patient and just listen to them about how they were treated like shit and ignored. Then I would tell the nurse to stop starting fires and expect me to put them out.
1. LOL
2. Are you suggesting that people who have never been cops cannot have an opinion on cops? Flawed logic that is exactly what needs to be weeded out of LEO. Guess what? Citizens are your employer, we get to have opinions on your performance.
3. Several of your posts describe how you bashed some arrestees, and got jammed up by the T&G, that is not a cop I would want representing my community
4. You seem to have a strong Hero Complex, starting with your screen name
5. This is a public forum, everyone gets an opinion. Dont want people to post opinions about what you write then dont write it. Cant handle it? Put me on ignore.
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Deleted member 12999
As a public servant, your wish is my command
It's fine. I, too, work in a job where I'm frequently second-guessed and where NES generally assumes I'm useless. No biggie.
The key going forward, though, is for the police to understand that reforms are needed, which is going to mean common ground and a certain amount of crow-eating. As I said in another post, this culture has been decades in the making and will probably take decades to fix. Fairly or not, for one reason or another, a big chunk of the public has lost faith in what policing has become.
The sales job that is going to result from that is going to be constant (given how ubiquitous cellphone cameras are) and it's going to need to involve every single cop. I'd be surprised if recruiting doesn't suffer. The DoD gravy train is probably going to end as this "defund" nonsense spreads. Some communities are going to screw it up like Somerville is, some won't. In the end, I'd hope it'll result in a more positive public perception of police officers, greater respect for the individual rights of citizens, and fewer summary deaths.
I mean, a guy can dream. Can't he?
It's a crazy world out there and unfortunately it's getting crazier everyday. If something happens to the protected classes or to anyone if not justified those responsible should be punished, but even when justified if they're from the protected class the person or persons responsible will be vilified by the press and the SJW mob. Sadly it's become a world that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
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Deleted member 12999
I'm not opposed to reform, but as I stated before the reform needs to rein in police, while at same time supporting the vast majority of good ones. I don't need to eat crow, as I did nothing wrong. I try to share some experience here without completely listing my resume, or putting all of my information public. I've done more to fix police problems within my control than pretty much anyone here who b****'s about police officers and posts articles about rogue cops. My conscience is clear, and... I assume... that you are a good teacher and don't expect you to apologize or eat crow about rapist teachers... nor do I expect you have any power to stop it. We control what we can control in our sphere of influence. Its the best we can do.
I've never hid behind a thin blue line, and have been vocal and honest about co workers that were not cut out for this job.
Lowbird
NES Member
headednorth
NES Member
- Joined
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DUI, ABPO
That’s a good question but way above my pay grade. I’ve seen just in open source pages some new and profound and sometimes ridiculous gadgets that diff companies are always trying to come up with, IE: the Batman net that shoots out of a small rifle type device, or the vehicle fired robotrons that can kill the entire electrical system of a moving vehicle during high speed pursuits and a few others like that.
The latest thing I’ve seen and I think may be in use now (don’t quote me on that) is this new fangled “bolo” Wonder Woman lasso type device that’s fired from a shoulder mounted system, it fires and then wraps itself around a combative subjects arms or legs completely tying them up and immobilizing them for an allegedly safe ending.
Most of these companies are in it for simple financial gain because they know if they can get a .gov contract it’s huge money for them. Regardless of that a lot of these things are gimmicks so far and just haven’t been put into mass consumption for one reason or another.
As for the tranq dart type thing, again, way above me, that would be something that comes from very high up, I’d assume federally, before it would water itself down to us and I’d have to also assume just has huge risks and liabilities for humans vs animals, due to different drug and prescription medical interactions, allergies that can kill people that’re very different for some, and other outstanding health issues that 5-0 would have no knowledge of prior to utilizing such tools.
I’m partial to the less lethal shotgun beanbag rounds myself. I think they’re effective and have much less of a chance of killing someone you don’t intend to if used properly and that’s fairly simple to do.
But again, it depends on training involved with it, strict standards of conduct and the ability to act calmly and rationally deciding where and when it’s used.
An example of how it can differ even for the shotgun beanbags that will always devolve into simple human discrepancy, error and / or lack of training or professionalism.
For several years I was assigned to what we call the gun trucks. Basically just a full time swat team with different options of lethal and less lethal to use if needed than a regular patrolman would typically have. We’d respond to any calls throughout the city that involved weapons and/or violent crimes. All of us were very well trained and most were veterans also.
We’d share vehicles between different shifts so you’d always have to take accountability of your personal gear and also check your diff weapons systems before heading out so you know personally that it’s squared away, common sense and only takes a few mins.
I would constantly find the less lethal shotgun already loaded with beanbag rounds and it drove me f***ing crazy. To me that’s complete lunacy and I will absolutely not trust that someone else hours before me has loaded this 12G with ONLY beanbags, simply because it was a dual use weapon and could fire both.
But this guy was happy with trusting that all day long. Different standards of training and thinking.
We would argue over this many times and his reasoning was that “it saves time if it’s ever needed.” That’s all he could wrap his head around in his world.
My argument was constantly, “First of all that’s bullshit and entirely unsafe. If you know what you’re doing with a shotgun you can load it fully on the move within seconds with the exact type of ammo (lethal or non) that’s needed for that particular call. If it does call for lethal, which may also require a much quicker response time, now we’re stuck downloading it and reloading it again with slugs while the shit is hitting the fan.”
And “If I have to respond to a call for a grandmother for example who’s an EDP or a dope head and is holding a knife to her own throat in a suicidal cry for help, and I am forced into hitting her with a 12G beanbag, there should not be any rush in doing that and I want to know 100% f***ing percent that that round I’m going to fire is a beanbag and not a slug. There can zero doubt before you press the trigger and I will absolutely not trust that someone else hasn’t left slugs in it from the prior shift (usually 2-3 men per truck which iOS the ante even more) if they got distracted by something and then I end up killing this person thinking I had beanbags in there.”
He just couldn’t wrap his head around that and thought that his way was the only way. Human error, fear, rushing to take action and lack of training and discipline will always come into play somehow, unfortunately. That is something only we as individuals can help negate, and only for each different scene before it must be done again to be 100% sure.
Very true. And then there are also guys who aren’t trained fighters, who just spent 5, 10, 20 years lifting weights behind bars and are complete animals that lack any type of empathy or remorse and would sooner stick a knife into an 80 yr old ladies eye socket than to be taken to jail ever again. Lot more of them out there these days too because the libs are cutting them all free.
Glockster30
NES Member
Based on comments he personally made to me a couple of years ago and comments made in other threads, I too am surprised that he lasted this long as an LEO. I'm pretty sure he has me on ignore, which is just fine with me. It's an honor as far as I'm concerned.
Why is that? Because you’re a human being or because you’re an American citizen?
What makes your rights any more important than an officers rights? You can easily turn that around and say the officers rights trump a criminals safety.
Either way you look at it, it sounds selfish and as though you’re saying that the man or woman that shows up to either help you or possibly detain you, whichever the scene, is a life less important than yours because they work for you.
I may be reading into your post too much, correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how it comes across in its current form.
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I think an officer chooses the LE career. That makes him or her culpable for the hazards and risks inherent in that profession. The officer can also choose to leave the profession if those risks exceed what they're willing to accept.
My rights, though, aren't a choice: they're natural. Nobody gave them to me, and I don't have to choose to pursue them. They are inherently mine. I can't give them up.
The police officer and I both have the same natural rights, but he or she is choosing to put themselves in a situation where they're placing those rights (to life and safety) at risk. So, when in conflict, my natural rights trump the safety that officer has chosen to risk, and may choose at any time to un-risk.
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Deleted member 12999
What if its your choices and behaviors that cause the officer to have to intervene on behalf of society? And you choose to be violent? Whos natural rights matter now? Is there a rights trump card?
Oh yeah... its my badge SUCK IT BITCHES. DOMINO!!!!!
What if its your choices and behaviors that cause the officer to have to intervene on behalf of society? And you choose to be violent? Whos natural rights matter now? Is there a rights trump card?
Oh yeah... its my badge SUCK IT BITCHES. DOMINO!!!!!
My choices and behaviors might, indeed, be awful and loathsome and unlawful. They might even merit the death penalty.
But that's for the court to decide. Not you. My right is to a fair trial, not to get plugged in the head by some scared cop because he thinks my cellphone is a gun. And then for him to not even get prosecuted for it.
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Deleted member 12999
Its cool that we can all have fun and make up exact scenarios that support our positions!
Your attitude is what it is. But where has it gotten your profession? Do you feel as though the public you serve and protect actually trusts your impartiality, all things being equal?
I don't. Current events are bearing me out.
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Deleted member 12999
Yes. The community I serve holds our department in high regard. They do surveys and we've fired several people who fail to perform. So... I sleep good.
I do love some of the comments from folks who have never had to fight anything other than the urge for seconds at dinner.
I watched a guy who was on nothing more than booze who had hit a pole and put his head through the windshield.
The first thing he did when he came around was go full out attacking the firemen and cops who were there to help.
All the while with his entire scalp flapping like a cheap toupee.
It took five cops to get him subdued and cuffed so they could get him in the ambulance all the while trying not to hurt him worst than he was.
In this particular case in Atlanta the guy had the cops tazer which while is less lethal, is not non lethal.
Now if they let some drugged up or drunk idiot just run off with it because they had to worry about not hurting "Feels" and he decided to fry someone into cardiac arrest with it , the same people would be screaming " Why did they let him get away ?"
I watched a guy who was on nothing more than booze who had hit a pole and put his head through the windshield.
The first thing he did when he came around was go full out attacking the firemen and cops who were there to help.
All the while with his entire scalp flapping like a cheap toupee.
It took five cops to get him subdued and cuffed so they could get him in the ambulance all the while trying not to hurt him worst than he was.
In this particular case in Atlanta the guy had the cops tazer which while is less lethal, is not non lethal.
Now if they let some drugged up or drunk idiot just run off with it because they had to worry about not hurting "Feels" and he decided to fry someone into cardiac arrest with it , the same people would be screaming " Why did they let him get away ?"
To be fair, a big chunk of the public has also lost faith in what society has become, and we are left to clean it up, sometimes with unreasonable standards as to how it’s done by the same folks who won’t do it themselves.
I’m all for question and answer type discussions, respectfully done, a lot of NES’ers have legit respectful questions and we can help answer some of them to better understand each other, thats never a bad thing.
But then there’s always agitators that’ll chirp up and want to be heard and usually have nothing to add but BS comments so they’ll feel better about themselves somehow. Always a typical scene in old shows and movies where the loudmouth in the auditorium forum stands up and starts yelling at clouds before others tell him to shut up and sit down so the adults can talk. This is not you, and I appreciate that, and it’s the only way to have these conversations to address ideas and actual things that matter.
One thing that I’m happy about seeing in this new reform being discussed is removing police from certain situations, IE, being called because a young student is being disruptive, being the first called and on scene for folks with emotional problems or behavioral problems, these things are not in a cops high list of training, and they shouldn’t be dealing with them, especially the kids for BS stuff, let the teachers and parents handle it 100%. There’s far too much expected from these folks with little to no training in those realms at all.
Way too many hats to wear nowadays and it’s a ridiculously high expectation to think they can do all of this without making some pretty big mistakes along the way. They’ve kind of been set up for failure in that regard.
We have folks that’re already highly trained to handle those types of scenes, why aren’t we letting them and why did we ever get away from that?
I don’t really buy that. Sounds good on paper but nah, just because someone chose a job does not in any way shape or form mean that they have disregarded their basic human rights, or their rights under the COTUS. It’s a different job, but it’s still just a job. This isn’t the military where your rights are basically gone upon stepping onto the yellow footprints. I find it kind of sad that you feel that way and I’m surprised by it actually.
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