Almost a year since NRA scared us with Obama and ammo shot sky high.

dhorta said:
I have seen this question and the same old discussion so many times and it always burns me! that we all still don't get it here in this country.
We are in control but we never seem to use it.
We have power in our numbers but we just can not and will not all come together.
In short if we all stop buying the damn ammo for just long enough, we could send a strong enough message that we will not be extorted.
Leave all the ammo stranded on the shelves for just 2 or 3 months and I promise you that the price will drop like a spent shell casing.
If we leave it there for 5 or 6 months you will see the biggest buy one get one sale in history just to bring the people back into the stores.
This works with everything by the way!!! maybe we are sometimes our own worst enemy and because of it we get dragged by the nose everytime.
The best example of this in recent times would be your basic plane ticket just after 9.11 Oh boy did that price drop and why you might ask? because nobody and I mean nobody that did not have to fly, went anywhere.
Band together America!!! or suck it up as usual when you buy your 8 dollar beer at the game, and your 3 dollar a gallon gas, or just keep saying "well it is only 3 bucks more when your cable TV goes up again for the 19th friggin time in 2 years.
etc.etc.etc.
I'm done...............
Click to expand...

Yeah, those gas boycott chain emails really put Exxon/Mobil in their place. I attribute the success of that movement to the fact that it's incredibly easy to coordinate the actions of millions of consumers. We'll cut into the ammo producers' unreasonably deep margins yet - supply and demand be damned! [smile]
 
klegrow said:
CalsDad.....perhaps some of us should banned together like I have with a friend of mine. When you see a reasonable price, buy up the whole damn lot they will allow you. Then if someone needs ammo and can't find it at a cheap price, sell them yours at cost. When the situation is reversed, they do you a solid back. Any thoughts or interest in that? For example, I know a place I can clean out now for 9mm Luger at $13.00 a box. Cheapest I've seen!
Click to expand...

I am always interested in a way to pick up more ammo at a good price. I have gone in with friends and people I work with a number of times to do road trips and do ammo buys and/or go in to bulk buy for a better price.
 
Well, anyone interested in ammo swap, send me a private message and we'll try to get a group together. I generally have 9mm Luger (Bear, Federal, and Wolf), .45 ACP (Magtech and Federal), and 5.56mm (Wolf). Only target grade stuff and right now very little 5.56mm. Because I value my LTC, I would only be willing to transfer in person and with a valid LTC. Thanks!
 
I love all the blame and finger pointing- it's the ammo manuf's fault!! aieee! [thinking]

The supply problems are mostly over, although .380 is still relatively hard to
get.

The real problem now is sticky price. There is a ton of overpriced ammo everywhere, and people are being fooled into thinking that's what it actually costs. I don't really know if ammo prices will recede by some huge amount- IMO the days of a case of M193 for under $300 are pretty much over forever. (I really hope I eat shoe leather on this statement, but frankly I'm not that optimistic. ) Prices will recede a little from current levels eventually, but we're never going to see 2004 prices again. The only way that will ever happen is if a large cauldron of excess supply occurs and there aren't enough people with cash to take advantage of it due to the rapidly dying economy.

-Mike
 
Its the American Way. I have to agree with drgrant and anyone else that threw out "sticky price". Profit and Prosper is the main goal of any business model (excluding the obviously Non-Profit group). I tend to disagree with regard to pricing coming back down. I just don't see it happening. Mfr's find they can sell at this price and the only time I can see any change happening is when ammo is back to nearly falling off the shelf and Mfr's and Dist. need to move merchandise. I feel that Mfr's will scale back a bit and create that artificial demand, keeping the shelves light so they can maximize profit. Cut the labor force down to a shift with a skeleton crew to run in off hours.

I look at it like this. Mass Pike Tolls. Were they not originally intended to simply repay the .gov for the cost of the build and the maintenance? The .gov keeps raising the tolls so Deval can drive around in a nice Cadillac among many other things.

All in all. I hope to be proved wrong on all of my points of view when it comes to this ammo-crisis. I dont want to have a negative view, but I believe the current state of it all would lead me to no other end.
 
dhorta said:
I have seen this question and the same old discussion so many times and it always burns me! that we all still don't get it here in this country.
We are in control but we never seem to use it.
We have power in our numbers but we just can not and will not all come together.
In short if we all stop buying the damn ammo for just long enough, we could send a strong enough message that we will not be extorted.
Leave all the ammo stranded on the shelves for just 2 or 3 months and I promise you that the price will drop like a spent shell casing.
If we leave it there for 5 or 6 months you will see the biggest buy one get one sale in history just to bring the people back into the stores.
This works with everything by the way!!! maybe we are sometimes our own worst enemy and because of it we get dragged by the nose everytime.
The best example of this in recent times would be your basic plane ticket just after 9.11 Oh boy did that price drop and why you might ask? because nobody and I mean nobody that did not have to fly, went anywhere.
Band together America!!! or suck it up as usual when you buy your 8 dollar beer at the game, and your 3 dollar a gallon gas, or just keep saying "well it is only 3 bucks more when your cable TV goes up again for the 19th friggin time in 2 years.
etc.etc.etc.
I'm done...............
Click to expand...

Stop buying = price goes down

Start buying again in huge quantities due to pent up demand = price skyrockets as supplies dwindle.

Your grade on pricing elasticity 101 = FAIL
 
What about having a big reloading party/get together?? People can bring their own supplies (I don't have a press) It would be great for those like me who want to learn to reload hands-on.
 
Jose, I think you are on one part right and one part wrong. Supply and demand plus the materials costs explains the price increase. So there you are right. But there is a growing trend in this country that when demand goes down, the price doesn't return to the same level, even if the demand goes below pre-surge levels. Everyone down the line gets the brilliant idea they can make more profit by not lowering the price as much. The sheeples usually don't care because they are paying less. Most people don't put 2 and 2 together.

Look at what has happened with oil. Demand went down, reserves were high again (pre-surge levels), and oil per barrel went well below before the whole thing started. Now during that low period did we see the price of gas return to the same level??? NO....I wouldn't be surprised if someone on Wall St. comes up with ammunition futures to manipulate the price even more! Your logic applied to the old economic system, but we are in a new type now. Trust me, in years they will be teaching about false economic manipulation in basic college classes (I think they do now in the more advanced economics courses).
 
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klegrow said:
Look at what has happened with oil. Demand went down, reserves were high again (pre-surge levels), and oil per barrel went well below before the whole thing started. Now during that low period did we see the price of gas return to the same level??? NO....
Click to expand...

Oil is a whole different ballgame from ammo. Most people can't opt out of buying oil products beyond a certain extent. You can decide to not fill up your RV or boat with gas, but you will still need that X $ of gas to get to work and go get groceries every week. With ammo there is no minimum use constraint. Further, with ammo, supply has returned but there is no supply "glut" yet, which means it won't dramatically influence prices.

-Mike
 
bumpbailey said:
What about having a big reloading party/get together?? People can bring their own supplies (I don't have a press) It would be great for those like me who want to learn to reload hands-on.
Click to expand...

That's the best idea I've heard all day. I would love something like that. I also want to learn a bit about reloading before I jump in with both feet.
 
Grant, I agree we do not have a "glut" yet, but we will get there. My bet is that when we do, we will not still reach those prices. There are plenty of places that haven't adjusted their prices at all since the all time highs. Last week I checked in a Dick's and their 9mm was still at like $24.95. I bought some from my local guy last week for $13.00.
 
klegrow said:
Jose, I think you are on one part right and one part wrong. Supply and demand plus the materials costs explains the price increase. So there you are right. But there is a growing trend in this country that when demand goes down, the price doesn't return to the same level, even if the demand goes below pre-surge levels. Everyone down the line gets the brilliant idea they can make more profit by not lowering the price as much. The sheeples usually don't care because they are paying less. Most people don't put 2 and 2 together.
Click to expand...
I am right on both counts. That's why I referred to the price elasticity of ammunition. Same goes for fuel.

And you know what? If I was in the business of selling something I would do my best to determine the price elasticity of my product and charge as much as the market would bear consistent with sales growth (that price elasticity function again). That is MY JOB as a businessman. My job as a businessman is not to provide my goods at the lowest possible price to keep my profit at some predetermined "fair" level.

Whoever said most Americans have no real understanding of business and economics is right on. This fantasy that prices "should" return to whatever the pre-increase level was solely out of the goodness of the seller just baffles me.
 
I am a businessman too Jose. I make a resonable profit right now. When the economy picks up, I may be able to charge a bit more and also get more business, which will also increase my profit. My customers stay loyal and have signed on for several projects BECAUSE I don't gouge or take advantage. The only time I have ever gouged is when a client has screwed me, but then calls later with an emergency that only I can fix. Then I say....okay.....that's $350/hour.
 
drgrant said:
Oil is a whole different ballgame from ammo. Most people can't opt out of buying oil products beyond a certain extent. You can decide to not fill up your RV or boat with gas, but you will still need that X $ of gas to get to work and go get groceries every week. With ammo there is no minimum use constraint. Further, with ammo, supply has returned but there is no supply "glut" yet, which means it won't dramatically influence prices.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Actually I disagree with some of that. One could argue transportation is a luxury. People never used to have cars. They still worked. Ok, so our society is built on this type of transportation now. You still do have some choice. You could ride a bike to work every day if you set it up like that. You do not HAVE to get a job prohibitedly far away that you require a vehicle. But our society is so entitled from having these emenities most people feel we NEED to drive cars to do what we want to. It is of course true that oil does not follow all the typical price changes that a good competing market might. It probably follows more of a monopoly. The government is doing a good job to ensure that keeps happening too.
 
TomH said:
Actually I disagree with some of that. One could argue transportation is a luxury. People never used to have cars. They still worked. Ok, so our society is built on this type of transportation now. You still do have some choice. You could ride a bike to work every day if you set it up like that. You do not HAVE to get a job prohibitedly far away that you require a vehicle. But our society is so entitled from having these emenities most people feel we NEED to drive cars to do what we want to. It is of course true that oil does not follow all the typical price changes that a good competing market might. It probably follows more of a monopoly. The government is doing a good job to ensure that keeps happening too.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the use of oil outside your personal consumption. Gas prices are reflected in shipping costs as well, thus influencing many of the goods we buy. Unfortunately, we married oil and the divorce isn't shaping out to be a pretty one.
 
TomH said:
One could argue transportation is a luxury. People never used to have cars. They still worked. Ok, so our society is built on this type of transportation now. You still do have some choice. You could ride a bike to work every day if you set it up like that. You do not HAVE to get a job prohibitedly far away that you require a vehicle.
Click to expand...

You are clueless if you believe that.

Find me a job as a manufacturing or quality engineer job that pays more than $70,000 within 5 miles of the center of Troy, Ohio and you can take any gun I have that you like for free.

Conversely, if you take the loss I would take on my house sale I will put it on the market and move to within biking distance of my current job.

Quit living in a car-free fantasy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
TomH said:
Ok, so our society is built on this type of transportation now. You still do have some choice. You could ride a bike to work every day if you set it up like that. You do not HAVE to get a job prohibitedly far away that you require a vehicle. But our society is so entitled from having these emenities most people feel we NEED to drive cars to do what we want to. It is of course true that oil does not follow all the typical price changes that a good competing market might. It probably follows more of a monopoly. The government is doing a good job to ensure that keeps happening too.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you can forgo a car if you want to live in a shitty, built up urban area. Sorry, but most people -NEED- cars to get to work, period, in most parts of the US. Most of us don't want to live in big dump cities. (I'm already in one that's rapidly becoming that, and it sucks... )

This is also ignoring the fact that it's often hard to change jobs, etc. There is less "choice" in the matter than you think.

For example, if I got a job outside the 495 loop my pay would probably be down by 30% easy, if not more... and I'd be looking at getting laid off every 2-4 years like every other poor sap who works in IT. I also work 2 jobs, and the second job would not work without personal transportation- I might have two out of 10 customers I could get to with a bicycle. You will counter with "well move inside the loop" but that's still a half an hour from work. (and the houses cost an extra 30-50%).

I'll put you in the same position, and then you can stand up and tell us all about how you took a 50% pay cut so you could ride a bike to work.

My point is, driving is no longer a choice for some of us, it's a necessity.


-Mike
 
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Riding a bike to work would be some great exercise for me...it's only a 70+ mile round trip ride for me. Maybe I could rollerskate or just skip to work...
 

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