AD in AZ by PD in SZ results in WC

[SteelShooter]

Accidental Discharge in Arizona by Police Department in School Zone results in 'who cares'.

So I'm in Phoenix today and on the news they are reporting about a police officer that is stationed in an elementary school had an accidental discharge on his Glock, a key got stuck in the trigger and when the LEO when to adjust his holster it fired, striking him in the finger. There were kids around when it happened but there were no other injuries. The school board had an open meeting to tell parents what happened and the response was 'yea, so?' They said, we need the cop there and he needs to have a gun, 'what if some bad guys came into our school, we want our kids protected!' No further action will be taken.

Can you imagine the response here in the PRM????

Also saw my first OC here. A guy with his wife and kid came in to the Chili's restaurant carrying a nice G19. No one even looked twice at it. (Except me)!

 

[wolf223]

... i can't wait to leave this state!

 

[doobie]

In MA, he'd probably be charged with improper storage, and the law would be changed that police couldn't bring firearms into schools, and bit notices would be put up, "This is a gun free zone, this includes police, No exceptions (except criminals who don't follow laws)!"

 

[pdm]

In MA, he'd probably be charged with improper storage, and the law would be changed that police couldn't bring firearms into schools, and bit notices would be put up, "This is a gun free zone, this includes police, No exceptions (except criminals who don't follow laws)!"

Pffft, you know that carrying it isn't storing it.

 

[FalArAk]

Cops shouldn't be allowed to carry sidearms that lack an external safety.

 

[weekendracer]

Cops shouldn't be allowed to carry sidearms that lack an external safety.

How do 'keys' get into a holster with a trigger guard? Improper equipment, or training, is what led to this, not a weapon without a safety.

 

[FalArAk]

How do 'keys' get into a holster with a trigger guard? Improper equipment, or training, is what led to this, not a weapon without a safety.

I see what you are saying,but....

If the weapon had a safety it wouldn't have happened,correct ?

I think everyone can agree MOST cops use their weapon only to qualify and they are no where near being proficient in the handling of firearms.

Want to carry a Glock or any other weapon without an external safety,go to advanced courses.

 

[lord1234]

I see what you are saying,but....

If the weapon had a safety it wouldn't have happened,correct ?

I think everyone can agree MOST cops use their weapon only to qualify and they are no where near being proficient in the handling of firearms.

Want to carry a Glock or any other weapon without an external safety,go to advanced courses.

You're once again putting police on a pedestal above other citizens. If we ban police from doing it, then regular citizens are next up. Why are cops better/worse then the rest of us? This is similar to my thoughts on any law that gives "harsher" penalties for doing something involving a police officer.

 

[drgrant]

Cops shouldn't be allowed to carry sidearms that lack an external safety.

That idea worked out really good here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnjgvph5SJg

(the gun in the vid is a Beretta)

I dunno, I just think a manual safety doesn't substitute much for "real" safety.

-Mike

 

[Jaxon]

Back in the day, we never used the safety anyway... so what's the point?

Better training.

 

[pbearperry]

All my guns have an external safety.It's called keeping your finger off of the trigger.

 

[JMody]

All my guns have an external safety. It's called keeping your finger off of the trigger.

Exactly!

 

[Big_Red]

They said, we need the cop there and he needs to have a gun, 'what if some bad guys came into our school, we want our kids protected!'

I am not sure I would want THAT cop to protect my kids.

 

[terraformer]

I see what you are saying,but....

If the weapon had a safety it wouldn't have happened,correct ?

I think everyone can agree MOST cops use their weapon only to qualify and they are no where near being proficient in the handling of firearms.

Want to carry a Glock or any other weapon without an external safety,go to advanced courses.

But the reality is the glock is so attractive because cops as a whole are not proficient and the PDs want basically a "point n' shoot" instead of the complication and power of a real firearm ( I have a G17...). So more training basically gets you to the point of being more proficient and more capable of dealing with more complicated arms and moots the point of needing the glock in the first place.

 

[center442]

Training is the best safety. Think back a few years when most cops carried .38sp revolvers. No external safeties, and I don't recall many ND's. Maybe there were just as many as seem to happen today, but there was no internet to spread the word, and the media probably didn't think it was all that newsworthy.

Maybe people were generally just more familiar with guns back then? I know that the general populace didn't become unglued every time they saw someone with a gun.

Ahhh, the good old days.....

 

[Pilgrim]

yup, it had to be a Glock.

yup, good, safe guns..........

 

[drgrant]

yup, it had to be a Glock.

yup, good, safe guns..........

Glocks are not the problem, the handlers are. I carried a loaded 2nd gen G19 for a year and a half, in what I would consider, a marginal holster (one of those cheapy uncle mikes IWBs) and I managed to avoid getting a hole in my leg or having an ND. It's really not that difficult. A little caution with any firearm goes a long way. It's fine to hate glocks, but let's not blame the hardware on this issue which is clearly a software problem.

-Mike

 

[bigmanfugitive]

I agree with drgrant, i carry a g26 loaded with a clipdraw and (knock on wood) have yet to have any kind of anything bad happen.

 

[dwarven1]

a police officer that is stationed in an elementary school had an accidental discharge on his Glock, a key got stuck in the trigger and when the LEO when to adjust his holster it fired, striking him in the finger.

A Glock. I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you.

NOT.

Add another to the list of oxymorons: Glock Safe Trigger.

All my guns have an external safety.It's called keeping your finger off of the trigger.

Which works great when your KEYS don't get stuck in your trigger guard.

I carried a loaded 2nd gen G19 for a year and a half, in what I would consider, a marginal holster (one of those cheapy uncle mikes IWBs) and I managed to avoid getting a hole in my leg or having an ND.

I agree with drgrant, i carry a g26 loaded with a clipdraw and (knock on wood) have yet to have any kind of anything bad happen.

Well, obviously you two are smarter than the average [STRIKE]bear[/STRIKE] LEO!

 

[xEnDoNx]

Which works great when your KEYS don't get stuck in your trigger guard.

Does someone really need to tell them that a holster is for Firearms only?

 

[appraiser]

I'd love to see how that happened, either the cop is BS'ing, or a one in a billion scenario went down.


I carried a first generation G17 for a couple of years in an IWB holster with retention and never worried about an AD.

I have a 3rd generation G22 that is a safe queen, that if I were to ever carry it I wouldn't worry about it.

not to sound stupid, but what kind of holster that is in LEO use, would allow any object to get anywhere near the trigger, at an angle that would let the "safety" (and I use that term loosely I don't consider Glock to be a gun with a safety) be defeated then allow enough force to be applied when a belt was being adjusted to cause a discharge that injured a digit?

Maybe in a school they let the officers use a different holster, but I thought most departments were picky about the type of holster they required.

 

[Underwhere]

Also saw my first OC here. A guy with his wife and kid came in to the Chili's restaurant carrying a nice G19. No one even looked twice at it. (Except me)!

When I was in AZ I read up on some laws. I remember reading somewhere that carrying a gun into any establishment that served alcohol was against the law.

Or maybe I don't remember correctly.

 

[FalArAk]

But the reality is the glock is so attractive because cops as a whole are not proficient and the PDs want basically a "point n' shoot" instead of the complication and power of a real firearm ( I have a G17...). So more training basically gets you to the point of being more proficient and more capable of dealing with more complicated arms and moots the point of needing the glock in the first place.

I thought it was because Glock GIVES PD's the guns.

 

[GSG]

Cops shouldn't be allowed to carry sidearms that lack an external safety.

If the weapon had a safety it wouldn't have happened,correct ?

Incorrect. If the cop didn't have a key in his trigger guard and his finger over the muzzle he never would've gotten shot in the finger. A safety would probably only lead to more AD/ND incidents with the kind of cops you're talking about, because they'd develop dangerous habits like thinking that a gun with a safety on is safe.

No one will be hurt or killed by a firearm if the basic safety rules are followed.

All my guns have an external safety.It's called keeping your finger off of the trigger.

+1

not to sound stupid, but what kind of holster that is in LEO use, would allow any object to get anywhere near the trigger, at an angle that would let the "safety" (and I use that term loosely I don't consider Glock to be a gun with a safety) be defeated then allow enough force to be applied when a belt was being adjusted to cause a discharge that injured a digit?

Maybe in a school they let the officers use a different holster, but I thought most departments were picky about the type of holster they required.

A few duty holsters with partially exposed trigger guards.

Every department has a different holster policy, some provide their own, others allow officers to choose, there's no real uniformity there.

But from the sound of this (granted, it's pretty limited info) the cop was doing something with the gun when it went off.

 

[drgrant]

When I was in AZ I read up on some laws. I remember reading somewhere that carrying a gun into any establishment that served alcohol was against the law.

Or maybe I don't remember correctly.

Does AZ differentiate between "Bar sections" and restaurants?

Further, even if you are right, I doubt that law is ever really enforced there, unless a LEO is summoned to an establishment and encounters a drunk guy toting a firearm.

-Mike

 

[SteelShooter]

I'd love to see how that happened, either the cop is BS'ing, or a one in a billion scenario went down.

From what they showed on the news, the LEO had put his keys into his belt, like sticking the key fob between his belt and pants, his Glock was slightly up out of the holster, the key then slid through the holster and key guard. When the LEO pushed the gun down into the holster the key basically acted as a finger and BAM! Not sure how his hand got in the way though. The holster looked like the the third one down in GSG's pictures. The COP said they were going to look at changing the type of holsters allowed.

 

[GSG]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2009/04/28/20090428swv-gunaccident0428-ON.html

Tolleson police: School resource officers will stay armed

Tolleson police will look into ways of preventing accidental gun discharges, but school resource officers will continue to carry loaded guns on campus.

The Tolleson Police Department and Tolleson Elementary School District held a community meeting Monday night at Arizona Desert Elementary School, where Officer Ray Granillo shot himself in his right middle finger during early dismissal last week.

Some parents were unaware that resource officers were armed and felt conflicted about it.

"There's no such thing as gun safety when there is a loaded gun," said Rebecca Escobedo, mother of two Arizona Desert Elementary children.

"I can see the pros and the cons" of having the resource officer armed, she added. "I don't want him not to have a gun. I'm just a mom who doesn't want my kids hurt."

Last Wednesday, Granillo's gun released inadvertently as students were being let out. Granillo had his .40-caliber Glock in his belt holster when the firearm went off. He was the only one wounded.

"I was standing near Ray when the gun went off," said Amy Ivie, who has two children at the Tolleson school.

As soon as the gun went off, Granillo immediately started looking around to make sure no one was injured, even before tending to his own wound, Ivie said.

"It was just a freak accident," she said. "I feel my kids are safer (with Granillo) around."

The Tolleson Police Department does not regulate the brand or model of holster that officers wear on duty. Granillo's accident could change that.

But police Chief Larry Rodriguez said the department and the district will continue to equip resource officers with loaded weapons.

At the time of the incident, Granillo, a 57-year-old law-enforcement veteran, was in plain clothes because of early dismissal and his gun was holstered onto his belt.

According to a police investigation, Granillo unlocked the gate outside and tucked the gate keys into his pants. One key apparently was lodged in an opening between the leather holster and trigger. The pressure caused the gun to go off.

Granillo was released from St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix on Sunday and is expected to return to the school.

Tolleson Elementary School District has a resource officer at Porfirio H. Gonzales Elementary School in Tolleson.

The officers' salaries are paid through the state's School Safety Program grant.

 

[GSG]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/2009/04/24/20090424swv-tolshooting0424-ON.html

Chief: Tolleson officer's self-inflicted shooting a 'freakish accident'

Tolleson police said the armed school resource officer who shot himself in the finger this week never took his weapon out of its holster and deemed the shooting a "freakish accident."

Officer Ray Granillo's gun discharged inadvertently Wednesday, as students at Arizona Desert Elementary School were being dismissed. He was shot in his right middle finger and is recovering at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix.

After investigating the incident, Tolleson police Chief Larry Rodriguez outlined this series of events:

• Granillo was dressed in plain clothes because of early dismissal. His .40-caliber Glock was holstered onto his belt.


• Granillo unlocked the gate outside the cafeteria in preparation for early release.


• After tucking the keys into his pants, one key was logged in an opening between the leather holster and trigger.


• Granillo cupped his hand underneath the holster and "tugged up" to readjust his belt.


• Enough pressure was applied between the trigger, key and leather to cause the trigger to fire.

"It was a very strange and very unusual situation," Rodriguez said. "When we got to him, the gun was still the in holster . . . and the spent cartridge was still in the weapon."

Officers found a small scratch on the trigger, corroborating the investigation's theory, Rodriguez said.

Tolleson Elementary School District officials are holding a community meeting Monday to answer any questions parents may have.

"Our big issue right now is student safety," said Superintendent Bill Christensen. "We want to make sure our parents and our community members feel safe."

Granillo, 57, is expected to return to the school, Rodriguez said. He noted all school resource officers carry loaded guns because "that's their function" at the school.

Many districts have a partnership with local law enforcement agencies to allow school resource officers on campus.

The Goodyear Police Department partners with all the school districts within the city, and each school has its own resource office.

Litchfield Elementary School District also pays for an officer at Wigwam Creek Middle School.

"The program is important because the officers serve as a resource to the school," said Rani Collins, Arizona Department of Education's School Safety Program administrator "They serve as role models to the students, showing the human side of law enforcement as well as deterring crime on campus."

Tolleson Elementary School District pays 100 percent of Granillo $65,000 annual salary through the state-funded School Safety Program Grant.

Started in 1994, the program today gives $14 million to 74 districts and charter schools across Arizona.

The Tolleson district's program receives $140,000 per year for two officers, one at Arizona Desert and the other at Porfirio H. Gonzales Elementary School, both in Tolleson. Granillo has been a resource officer for two years. He teaches anti-bullying and drug-prevention courses on the K-8 campus.

"(Granillo) is seen as the safe person for parent and students," Christensen said. "He's very popular."

 

[Ray Ninness]

Paid to train???

Back in the day, we never used the safety anyway... so what's the point?

Better training.

Most LEO's want to be paid for training time???

If my life depended on something I think I would get darn good at it, period, not sit around waiting for someone to pay me to do it???

Years ago when I took a fire arms safety course the LEO that was teaching the class, swept he classroom with a loaded weapon when he tried to clear it, to demonstrate shomething. I was the only person in the class out of his seat and running from the loud end of his Glock, screaming, "Muzzel, A$S Hole" His first question after he recovered himself was?? "Why didn't anyone else catch that"???

 

[Jaxon]

Most LEO's want to be paid for training time???

If my life depended on something I think I would get darn good at it, period, not sit around waiting for someone to pay me to do it???

Years ago when I took a fire arms safety course the LEO that was teaching the class, swept he classroom with a loaded weapon when he tried to clear it, to demonstrate shomething. I was the only person in the class out of his seat and running from the loud end of his Glock, screaming, "Muzzel, A$S Hole" His first question after he recovered himself was?? "Why didn't anyone else catch that"???

Did I say ANYTHING about getting paid for training time? No, but unfortunately, collective bargaining doesn't allow work done off the clock (correct me if that has changed over the years, I'm using "back in the day" information). And you're correct, one should now how to effectively use the tools you're given to do the job. It seems that isn't the case for most LEOs these days (present company excluded).

I don't have an answer for you at this point, other than my original one of "better training".