.40 S&W bullets from 9mm cases

DukeInFlorida

DukeInFlorida

Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
4,195
Likes
253
Location
South of you
Feedback: 53 / 0 / 0
Hey, check this out:
P1020397.jpg


and

9mmcaseto40caliberbullet.jpg


This fellow came up with a way to make jacketed .40 S&W bullets out of 9mm cases. He selects cases from the same manufacturer, and then weighs them so the weights are all the same. Then, he casts lead bullets (I already have the mold!), and plops them in the cases, and runs them through a single forming tool. His results look funny, but shoot great!
http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/vb/showthread.php?t=3118

There's a video on the web of a different guy doing the same thing:
http://s636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/?action=view&current=P1020390.flv

That's mentioned here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=70121

I have tons of 9mm brass!!! The swaging die costs a mere $120. Gotta come up with a press to handle it. What do you think?

BTW, I used to swear at the 9mm that fit inside the .40 S&W's when I am sorting range brass. Now, it makes sense to me. The 9mm's are perfect as bullet jackets for the 40's.
 
Last edited:
I did some messing around with the concept.......

I used some cast WW 124 grain round nose boolits that I had, and plugged those, wrong side in (as was suggested in the video), into the 9mm case. I put the case with the somewhat installed cast bullet in the shell holder in a RCBS press, and used a flat bar to push the top of the case (lead) against. That seated the lead bullet deep into the case. I did some weird adjusting on a Lee bullet seating die, and got this:

40BULLET.jpg


Right two are resultant 9mm cases formed into .40 S&W bullets. Middle is a .40 HP, installed normally. Left two are two of the "bullets" placed inside .40 cases. Too loose for my liking.

Kind of looks like a weird wad cutter.

The WCC head stamp cases gave me the best repeatable weight, 187 grains. The overall length of the cast bullet is longer than the inside of the 9mm case length, so I know there is some squishing of the point of the cast bullet into the bottom of the 9mm case. That would support the lead in the 9mm case when fired.

I'm nervous that the case diameter of the loaded 9mm doesn't fit all that well (too loose) in a sized .40 S&W case. I'm not going to put any powder in, and try firing anything until I get a tight fit. I would guess that the CH style swaging die set not only forms the nose of the 9mm case around the lead. I'm also guessing that is expands the diameter of the case, thereby shortening the resultant bullet, which is a good thing. While the base of the 9mm case doesn't go to the bottom of the .40 S&W case, I'd like a bit more powder head room that I get so far.

I sure would like to track down that jolly guy in the video, and ask some questions.
 
DukeInMaine said:
I did some messing around with the concept.......

I used some cast WW 124 grain round nose boolits that I had, and plugged those, wrong side in (as was suggested in the video), into the 9mm case. I put the case with the somewhat installed cast bullet in the shell holder in a RCBS press, and used a flat bar to push the top of the case (lead) against. That seated the lead bullet deep into the case. I did some weird adjusting on a Lee bullet seating die, and got this:

40BULLET.jpg


Right two are resultant 9mm cases formed into .40 S&W bullets. Middle is a .40 HP, installed normally. Left two are two of the "bullets" placed inside .40 cases. Too loose for my liking.

Kind of looks like a weird wad cutter.

The WCC head stamp cases gave me the best repeatable weight, 187 grains. The overall length of the cast bullet is longer than the inside of the 9mm case length, so I know there is some squishing of the point of the cast bullet into the bottom of the 9mm case. That would support the lead in the 9mm case when fired.

I'm nervous that the case diameter of the loaded 9mm doesn't fit all that well (too loose) in a sized .40 S&W case. I'm not going to put any powder in, and try firing anything until I get a tight fit. I would guess that the CH style swaging die set not only forms the nose of the 9mm case around the lead. I'm also guessing that is expands the diameter of the case, thereby shortening the resultant bullet, which is a good thing. While the base of the 9mm case doesn't go to the bottom of the .40 S&W case, I'd like a bit more powder head room that I get so far.

I sure would like to track down that jolly guy in the video, and ask some questions.
Click to expand...

The guy goes by the handle BT Sniper on the Cast Boolits forum. He is also making .44s from .40 cases.
 
Very interesting concept. What are the economics of this? How much do plinking .40 S&W lead bullets cost vs 9mm lead bullets? I understand some of you may have a ton of 9mm brass, but what would that typically cost? Does it actually work out to be cheaper with 9mm cases, 9mm bullets, and forming them like this into .40 S&W bullets?
 
Economics???

Here's what I have been using from berry's:
40-155-165-180-fp_md.jpg


They cost $110.56 per thousand.
http://berrysmfg.com/product.aspx?i=14497&c=14&pp=8&sb=0&p=0

I already have the cast lead bullets, and can make many more thousands of those, virtually free.
I already have the brass.

So, for a $130 tool, I can make a BUNCH of free bullets, and save the cost of the tool in a mere 1,000 bullets.

Of course it makes sense!

exodious said:
Very interesting concept. What are the economics of this? How much do plinking .40 S&W lead bullets cost vs 9mm lead bullets? I understand some of you may have a ton of 9mm brass, but what would that typically cost? Does it actually work out to be cheaper with 9mm cases, 9mm bullets, and forming them like this into .40 S&W bullets?
Click to expand...
 
for someone who doesn't cast for instance, i can get 500 cast bullets for .40/.38/9mm for $26.00 about 5 cents each.
 
Last edited:
Brass is harder than copper.

According to this link: http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

Copper has a Brinell hardness of about 40 to 50.
Brass has a Brinell hardness of about 100 (or 150-190 depending on the type of brass).

I'm not sure what type of brass is used for cartridges, so I don't know the hardness of our 'brass'. I've seen other brass listed online as between a Brinell hardness of 100 and 230.

For comparison, according to that chart, malleable iron is about 134 and soft steel is about 279.

So, would firing a brass jacketed bullet lead to excessive wear in a barrel as compared to normal (copper) plated/jacketed bullets?

Just wondering....
 
A new barrel for my $900 Sig gun is a mere $150 or so. I'm not concerned at all about wearing out a barrel.
A worn out barrel just means that I have had a great time shooting!

R1ch said:
Brass is harder than copper.

According to this link: http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

Copper has a Brinell hardness of about 40 to 50.
Brass has a Brinell hardness of about 100 (or 150-190 depending on the type of brass).

I'm not sure what type of brass is used for cartridges, so I don't know the hardness of our 'brass'. I've seen other brass listed online as between a Brinell hardness of 100 and 230.

For comparison, according to that chart, malleable iron is about 134 and soft steel is about 279.

So, would firing a brass jacketed bullet lead to excessive wear in a barrel as compared to normal (copper) plated/jacketed bullets?

Just wondering....
Click to expand...
 
DukeInMaine said:
I did some messing around with the concept.......

I used some cast WW 124 grain round nose boolits that I had, and plugged those, wrong side in (as was suggested in the video), into the 9mm case. I put the case with the somewhat installed cast bullet in the shell holder in a RCBS press, and used a flat bar to push the top of the case (lead) against. That seated the lead bullet deep into the case. I did some weird adjusting on a Lee bullet seating die, and got this:

40BULLET.jpg


Right two are resultant 9mm cases formed into .40 S&W bullets. Middle is a .40 HP, installed normally. Left two are two of the "bullets" placed inside .40 cases. Too loose for my liking.

Kind of looks like a weird wad cutter

The WCC head stamp cases gave me the best repeatable weight, 187 grains. The overall length of the cast bullet is longer than the inside of the 9mm case length, so I know there is some squishing of the point of the cast bullet into the bottom of the 9mm case. That would support the lead in the 9mm case when fired.

I'm nervous that the case diameter of the loaded 9mm doesn't fit all that well (too loose) in a sized .40 S&W case. I'm not going to put any powder in, and try firing anything until I get a tight fit. I would guess that the CH style swaging die set not only forms the nose of the 9mm case around the lead. I'm also guessing that is expands the diameter of the case, thereby shortening the resultant bullet, which is a good thing. While the base of the 9mm case doesn't go to the bottom of the .40 S&W case, I'd like a bit more powder head room that I get so far.

I sure would like to track down that jolly guy in the video, and ask some questions.
Click to expand...

Did you use alloy or pure lead to cast the cores?
 
I'd be curious to see how they shoot.

The 'bullet' has a rim (with ejector/extractor marks/dents), and a spent primer with an offset strike. I'm going to guess that they're not match quality.


R1ch said:
Brass is harder than copper.

According to this link: http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

Copper has a Brinell hardness of about 40 to 50.
Brass has a Brinell hardness of about 100 (or 150-190 depending on the type of brass).

I'm not sure what type of brass is used for cartridges, so I don't know the hardness of our 'brass'. I've seen other brass listed online as between a Brinell hardness of 100 and 230.

For comparison, according to that chart, malleable iron is about 134 and soft steel is about 279.

So, would firing a brass jacketed bullet lead to excessive wear in a barrel as compared to normal (copper) plated/jacketed bullets?

Just wondering....
Click to expand...

That's not the right alloy - that's something they use to make hammer heads and it's way harder than cartridge brass.

Cartridge (75/25) brass has a Brinell hardness of 45-60. A number of manufacturers (Montana Gold for example) use it for jacket material.
 
Last edited:
Apparently, after going through the swage die set, all of the dimensions are uniform, and in control.
I wouldn't shoot these as match rounds, but rather as miscellaneous plinking rounds. Perfect for getting a better technique with my Sig.

EC, I'm no metallurgist, but I thought I recall (from when I worked in the fastener industry) that cartridge brass is 70-30 alloy.
I see lots of references to 70-30 brass, including this one from a renowned industry guy:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uz...BA#v=onepage&q=modern cartridge brass&f=false

I could be wrong about that though.

EddieCoyle said:
I'd be curious to see how they shoot.

The 'bullet' has a rim (with ejector/extractor marks/dents), and a spent primer with an offset strike. I'm going to guess that they're not match quality.




That's not the right alloy - that's something they use to make hammer heads and it's way harder than cartridge brass.

Cartridge (75/25) brass has a Brinell hardness of 45-60. A number of manufacturers (Montana Gold for example) use it for jacket material.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
The bullets that I used in my simple preliminary experiment were cast from wheel weight lead. I see from my reading, that since the lead is a core, surrounded by a brass jacket, and the whole thing needs to get swaged, the best bullet material to use is basic pure lead.
I'm working on getting a supply of pure lead (I have a ton of WW ingots), and will cast some of the RN 124 grain bullets in that, and use those in the swage die set, when that comes in. I guess I should have also included a photo of the cast bullets that went into the 9mm cases. I'll do that tomorrow.
They were round nose, 124 grain bullets (tumble lube micro grooves), nose down in the brass. The small amount of area reduction I did is nothing compared to the shortening and fattening that the swage die will do. They should end up looking like the HP's in the first post.

Gammon said:
Did you use alloy or pure lead to cast the cores?
Click to expand...
 
DukeInMaine said:
The bullets that I used in my simple preliminary experiment were cast from wheel weight lead. I see from my reading, that since the lead is a core, surrounded by a brass jacket, and the whole thing needs to get swaged, the best bullet material to use is basic pure lead.
I'm working on getting a supply of pure lead (I have a ton of WW ingots), and will cast some of the RN 124 grain bullets in that, and use those in the swage die set, when that comes in. I guess I should have also included a photo of the cast bullets that went into the 9mm cases. I'll do that tomorrow.
They were round nose, 124 grain bullets (tumble lube micro grooves), nose down in the brass. The small amount of area reduction I did is nothing compared to the shortening and fattening that the swage die will do. They should end up looking like the HP's in the first post.
Click to expand...

That is why I asked. If you are going to swage you really should use pure lead. Alloy will be to hard to easily deform.
 
I've heard back from BT Sniper from cast Boolits, and he promises me that this will work, and that he will help guide me through the process. He even has a few modifications that he is suggesting for upgrading the CH swage die set. One of those will allow me to use wheel weight lead for the cores, which is better for me!

I'll send in my order for the swage dies and will start off using a spare RCBS single station press. I'll have to whack the bullet out of the swage die with a dead blow hammer to start off with.
 
Crap! The world would be a wonderful place if NO ONE EVER had to shoot a bad guy.
The bad guys don't make their own ammo. So, the only way one of these would be in a body is if some bad guy took that fateful step that required it.

namedpipes said:
I have to wonder when one of the CSI shows will pull one of these from a body and say WTF?!
Click to expand...
 
DukeInMaine said:
Crap! The world would be a wonderful place if NO ONE EVER had to shoot a bad guy.
The bad guys don't make their own ammo. So, the only way one of these would be in a body is if some bad guy took that fateful step that required it.
Click to expand...

You make an excellent point. Though I can imagine a badguy stealing ammo during a burglary.

Also, for purposes of a television show, we all know better than to expect the writers to care about logic and reason. See the recent thread on CSI and a gun shop.
 
I'm going to be in a TV show??? Gotta clean up my reloading area!!!!

Do I have to wear a tie????

namedpipes said:
You make an excellent point. Though I can imagine a badguy stealing ammo during a burglary.

Also, for purposes of a television show, we all know better than to expect the writers to care about logic and reason. See the recent thread on CSI and a gun shop.
Click to expand...
 
Just sent in my $$$ to get the set of tooling that does this. BT Sniper will make heavy duty modified inserts that will provide (depending on which punch is used) either a SWC, HP, or FP bullet:
Everythingfor100shipped.jpg


I can't wait to get it in, and will post results here.
 
BT Sniper has active threads in several places, including castboolits.com and ammobrasstrader.com (where he is known as 6.5X300). People have been asking questions, and getting answers, and I wanted to document the summary of what has been discussed elsewhere:

  • The brass should be sorted as to weight
  • The lead cores can be either wheel weight lead or pure lead. The wheel weight lead seems to actually form better. Sort the resultant castings so that they also have consistency with regard to weight.
  • The brass should get annealed prior to swaging.
  • One experimenter is using a $15 screen type collandar from Walmart, and has removed all of the rubber feet, handles, etc. He places about 500 9mm bullets on this screen, and puts INSIDE his glowing wood stove for about 5 minutes, when all the brass is glowing.
  • Others are going to use the self cleaning ovens (500+ degrees) in their kitchens for annealing.
  • One guy is putting the brass in a lead production pot, and cranking the heat all the way up.
  • Anything that gets the brass glowing will work.
  • Cleaning the brass after annealing is important. Using the vibratory tumbler should work, and just pick out the ones that are stubborn.
  • One fellow suggests the use of vinegar/salt to clean the brass.
  • Bell mouthing the brass is important to the installation of the core, since you don't want to shave any lead off.
  • One fellow has experimented, an will be using the bell mouthing die to bell mouth, and then install the core, and allow the bell mouthing die to "seat" the core.
  • Lubrication is necessary when doing the swaging. Most of the normal lubricants that can be used in reloading are fine. Discussions are along the lines of home made lanolin based lubes. I'll be using RCBS case lube. Imperial Wax is another great lube for this job.Too much lube will cause dimples, so use sparingly.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Hodgdon buys RCBS from Vista
Replies
2
Views
170
EddieZoom
EddieZoom
bullets
Replies
9
Views
397
gerrycaruso
gerrycaruso
Bullets to keep cost down on reloading 223?
Replies
18
Views
602
EddieCoyle
EddieCoyle
Quick change from 38 Spl to 357 Mag
Replies
20
Views
835
mac1911
M
9MM & 45ACP RELOADING WITH WIN 244
Replies
9
Views
489
gerrycaruso
gerrycaruso
Back
Top Bottom