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21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

Dench said:
Mental health treatment in this country is a joke. People don't seek help because they don't want to be locked up.

I don't know how many of my peers from the Army have gotten a free and voluntold mandatory 72 hour vacation in the nuthouse because they told their councilor what was on their mind. I know one soldier who simply said "I want to kill that guy!" in every day tongue and cheek like plenty of people do. Poof, gone for 3 days. Job? Consider yourself shit canned. Dependants? Their on their own. If you refuse? The state will have a judge order you regardless and boom, you are now a federally prohibited person.

That's why adults specifically don't seek help. It's not about helping people. It's about either locking them up or medicating them out of society.

The entire system is a joke.
Click to expand...
Witnessed a family member threaten to kill himself (actually) in front of the rest of the family. Nothing happened. Thank god he didn't do it... after that day, crickets.... I don't even want to hear "...but the system is _____". Why? We have no system....
 
Dadstoys said:
Everyone should spend a few minutes in a room with someone who is skin your face off and eat it crazy.
I'm talking about someone who would kill you in a heartbeat if given half a chance for no particular reason crazy.
Gives one a whole different perspective .
These people weren't hatched as adults , they were infants and grew to adulthood with signs throughout their whole lives that went mostly ignored by people who didn't want to see.
The one's who did the ignoring many times are the one's that end up as body parts in multiple trash bags.

I recall one who I knew personally who from the time we were in kindergarden everybody knew.
All through middle school , high school , everybody knew.
All the signs were there all his life , animal torture , sadistic tendencies .
Even at 10 -12 years old you knew never to turn your back on him.
His siblings knew and tried to get him locked up , court was having none of it.
He died in prison after getting life for splitting his mother's head with an hatchet.
Not a single person who knew him was surprised in the least.
Click to expand...
There are those, and then there are:
www.courant.com

GUNMAN KILLS 2 IN CROWDED RESTAURANT

A Navy cook strode into a crowded family restaurant Tuesday morning, killed two managers with at least 12 shots from a handgun and then surrendered to police. Customers and employees scrambled to t…
www.courant.com www.courant.com

I grew up with Mike. If there was a yearbook superlative "Least Likely to Go Postal in a Fast Food Restaurant" it would have been him. As it was, he was his high school class president I believe four years straight. We jokingly referred to him as the Reverend Doctor (yes, he's black), as he was always the one to be the peacemaker and calm the ruffled feathers in our circle of friends.

Yet at present he's a guest of the Connecticut Department of Corrections.
 
Last edited:
Dadstoys said:
You could kill more than that in 45 minutes with a sledgehammer.
Especially a bunch of 10 year old kids.
What are they going to do , bum rush you ?
You won't have to stop to reload either.
Click to expand...


Or a sword. The amount of people killed by armies with swords was HUGE.

And as far as the school shooting being laid solely at the feet of AR-15s - the whole premise is retarded.

One of the earliest mass murders I've read about at a school - was from a janitor who carefully laid up a bunch of explosives under the school and blew the thing up.

en.wikipedia.org

Bath School disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

He killed 45 people.

He didn't need an AR-15
 
Picton said:
Is the money spent on this not important, too? You can't just blithely gloss over it: every "trained professional armed guard" means one less teacher, and from where I sit overcrowded classrooms are a much bigger problem in schools than shooters are. So you can't pretend the money doesn't matter.

The bigger problem? Ask anyone who's ever guarded, say, a motor pool in the military. You're there on the one in a million chance that someone might someday come in and mess with the vehicles, but you know in the back of your mind that that's never really going to happen. School shootings are exceptionally rare. I've guarded that motor pool; I've been in that situation. I've lost my mind with boredom, watching an access point where nothing's happened, nothing's happening, and nothing's going to happen. The problem is money, yes, but it's also vigilance.

I've said before in this thread that my school posts every year for jobs like that, and we never ever get any nibbles. Never. I'm not sure why NES thinks there's this massive reserve of ex-SEALs in every community looking to bravely guard the schools: they just don't exist.
Click to expand...
Put a few Bingo and Mahjong tables in the front lobby and let the ladies in before the first busses arrive. For the price of coffee, tea and biscuits you could have the best detective force in any city - those ladies will know everyone’s coming and goings and all the rumors.

I’m kind-of serious - just having eyes on doors that don’t go crazy from boredom is a huge deterrent. The schools that don’t do that would be the softest targets. Of course, the Progressives & Liberals would think of all the reasons why any good idea that doesn’t ban guns should not be implemented.
 
MaverickNH said:
I’m kind-of serious - just having eyes on doors that don’t go crazy from boredom is a huge deterrent. The schools that don’t do that would be the softest targets. Of course, the Progressives & Liberals would think of all the reasons why any good idea that doesn’t ban guns should not be implemented.
Click to expand...
Because - once again - they're NOT interested in curbing these atrocities. In fact, they want MORE.

They want to use them as a means of gaining more control, first and foremost by disarming us. You'll likewise note they're also utterly disinterested in disarming their pet hoodrats, despite there's where the bulk of the bloodshed comes from.
 
Dench said:
Mental health treatment in this country is a joke. People don't seek help because they don't want to be locked up.

I don't know how many of my peers from the Army have gotten a free and voluntold mandatory 72 hour vacation in the nuthouse because they told their councilor what was on their mind. I know one soldier who simply said "I want to kill that guy!" in every day tongue and cheek like plenty of people do. Poof, gone for 3 days. Job? Consider yourself shit canned. Dependants? Their on their own. If you refuse? The state will have a judge order you regardless and boom, you are now a federally prohibited person.

That's why adults specifically don't seek help. It's not about helping people. It's about either locking them up or medicating them out of society.

The entire system is a joke.
Click to expand...
Most truly mentally ill people don't realize, or won't accept, that they are mentally ill.
 
My Daughter is always telling me that most days police drop off people at her hospital who are struggling with mental health or have threatened to harm themselves. The hospital isn't the right place for them but the police don't know what else to do with them.
 
From Gabe Suarez:


(this came thru in email) :

RELUCTANCE TO ENGAGE

I have been asked about the reluctance to engage by the troops in Uvalde. I confess to be astounded by the inaction of the "Non-Responders". I never remember such a thing ever happening when I was on the job.

Some have suggested that the officers were afraid to be second guessed by the administrators of the agency. But in that job you are ALWAYS second guessed, yet that didn’t stop any of us from doing what was necessary.

Sadly, the fear of second guessing has created a culture of inaction. The last Chief I worked under – in the previous century - was a black supremacist that would rather bury ten cops than see one of them shoot anyone. His words..."No officer will ever be disciplined for NOT shooting". That created a culture of sanctioned cowardice.

Today that sentiment is still alive in the profession. The LE training I have done...and I don't like doing LE training...has shown me that the % of meat eaters hasn't changed. But over half of the ranks are essentially worthless in a real fight. They may have great skills and be fit and graduate all the tactical schools...but the fear of repercussions has them in a place where all they are is window dressing. Don't expect any gallantry there. Then there are those capable and willing, but they have lost the ability for critical thinking and are in essence automatons who will go and do as they are told…but nothing else.

I hate to refer to the "old days", but that is where my perspective comes from. Shit went down and you handled it. Your world view was that you were there to deploy on the bad guys.

My first OIS was what would today be called an Active Shooter. No mutual aid or anything of the sort. Two cars working graveyard...one in pursuit of a carjacking into South Central. My partner and I get the call...we go there...we locate the bad guy...sneak up to him...and end the movie for him. Done and done. No waiting for clearance...not nothing.

There are a myriad of ways to disobey stupid directives. That guy in Uvalde should have been run to ground and terminated in place before the chief or even the media ever got a call of what was happening.

There are another two factors at play.

The loss of qualified immunity. If I was still on the job…in all honesty...without qualified immunity, I would take my retirement and leave the sheep of the earth to fend for themselves.

Another factor is unionized police vs right-to-work. A unionized agency is protected from the whims of the politicians, and those officers are protected from the vindictiveness of administrators. My agency was unionized and so I could - with a credible plausible story - disobey a foolish order, and not be fired for it. In an agency lacking that, an officer could ostensibly be fired for disobedience. I have said in the past that the rank and file would not risk loss of their job by disobeying a direct order. I think this is an example of that sad state of affairs.

The other side of the coin is that an officer that knows what is happening and ignores a "stand by" order, goes in and kills the bad guy, thereby saving everyone, will rarely be fired. Can you imagine the lawsuit filed by such an officer for wrongful termination?

It is a large issue...but I suspect the culture of an agency begins with the leader of that agency. And that has a trickle down effect on how the officers behave. The more events that unfold like this, with inept and reluctant police action, the more people will begin to accept the notion that they need to take care of business themselves and never call for those who would not only muddy the waters but who would by inaction protect the bad guy from those who would remove him from the stage.

Gabriel Suarez​
 
Dench said:
Mental health treatment in this country is a joke. People don't seek help because they don't want to be locked up.

I don't know how many of my peers from the Army have gotten a free and voluntold mandatory 72 hour vacation in the nuthouse because they told their councilor what was on their mind. I know one soldier who simply said "I want to kill that guy!" in every day tongue and cheek like plenty of people do. Poof, gone for 3 days. Job? Consider yourself shit canned. Dependants? Their on their own. If you refuse? The state will have a judge order you regardless and boom, you are now a federally prohibited person.

That's why adults specifically don't seek help. It's not about helping people. It's about either locking them up or medicating them out of society.

The entire system is a joke.
Click to expand...

Any gun owner - especially in states like MA, who is fully informed about how the "system" works , knows damn well to stay well away from the "mental health care" industry.

You stand a good chance of screwing yourself right out of your License and suffering some pretty serious financial setbacks as well if they somehow determine you have issues and then confiscate your firearms - which will then disappear into the black hole of a licensed warehouse (or whatever they're called) - possibly never to be seen again.

I've read a number of stories about how vets also get screwed over by this system - to the point where I'm amazed that anybody with a brain in their head would ever make a rational decision to serve , especially in a combat role where you might see shit that would give you those mental issues you referred to that might lead you to seek counseling.
 
calsdad said:
From Gabe Suarez:


(this came thru in email) :

​

​

​

​
​
RELUCTANCE TO ENGAGE

I have been asked about the reluctance to engage by the troops in Uvalde. I confess to be astounded by the inaction of the "Non-Responders". I never remember such a thing ever happening when I was on the job.

Some have suggested that the officers were afraid to be second guessed by the administrators of the agency. But in that job you are ALWAYS second guessed, yet that didn’t stop any of us from doing what was necessary.

Sadly, the fear of second guessing has created a culture of inaction. The last Chief I worked under – in the previous century - was a black supremacist that would rather bury ten cops than see one of them shoot anyone. His words..."No officer will ever be disciplined for NOT shooting". That created a culture of sanctioned cowardice.

Today that sentiment is still alive in the profession. The LE training I have done...and I don't like doing LE training...has shown me that the % of meat eaters hasn't changed. But over half of the ranks are essentially worthless in a real fight. They may have great skills and be fit and graduate all the tactical schools...but the fear of repercussions has them in a place where all they are is window dressing. Don't expect any gallantry there. Then there are those capable and willing, but they have lost the ability for critical thinking and are in essence automatons who will go and do as they are told…but nothing else.

I hate to refer to the "old days", but that is where my perspective comes from. Shit went down and you handled it. Your world view was that you were there to deploy on the bad guys.

My first OIS was what would today be called an Active Shooter. No mutual aid or anything of the sort. Two cars working graveyard...one in pursuit of a carjacking into South Central. My partner and I get the call...we go there...we locate the bad guy...sneak up to him...and end the movie for him. Done and done. No waiting for clearance...not nothing.

There are a myriad of ways to disobey stupid directives. That guy in Uvalde should have been run to ground and terminated in place before the chief or even the media ever got a call of what was happening.

There are another two factors at play.

The loss of qualified immunity. If I was still on the job…in all honesty...without qualified immunity, I would take my retirement and leave the sheep of the earth to fend for themselves.

Another factor is unionized police vs right-to-work. A unionized agency is protected from the whims of the politicians, and those officers are protected from the vindictiveness of administrators. My agency was unionized and so I could - with a credible plausible story - disobey a foolish order, and not be fired for it. In an agency lacking that, an officer could ostensibly be fired for disobedience. I have said in the past that the rank and file would not risk loss of their job by disobeying a direct order. I think this is an example of that sad state of affairs.

The other side of the coin is that an officer that knows what is happening and ignores a "stand by" order, goes in and kills the bad guy, thereby saving everyone, will rarely be fired. Can you imagine the lawsuit filed by such an officer for wrongful termination?

It is a large issue...but I suspect the culture of an agency begins with the leader of that agency. And that has a trickle down effect on how the officers behave. The more events that unfold like this, with inept and reluctant police action, the more people will begin to accept the notion that they need to take care of business themselves and never call for those who would not only muddy the waters but who would by inaction protect the bad guy from those who would remove him from the stage.

Gabriel Suarez​



Click to expand...
I can't disagree with almost any of this. The BP guys have a pretty stout union, not great, but getting fired is rough on management to get through. It has it's drawbacks, no doubt, but if something I read is true: They were being told to stand down AS they were breaching in progress, then having a union to back you is a good thing.
 
jpk said:
I saw this reported once before early

www.thegatewaypundit.com

WATCH: Hero Uvalde Mom Who Rushed Inside School to Save Her Kids Says Police Threatened Her With Probation Violation if She Spoke to Media | The Gateway Pundit | by Cassandra MacDonald

The hero Uvalde mother who rushed inside the school to save her children has said that police threatened to hit her with a probation violation if she spoke to the media about what happened that day.
www.thegatewaypundit.com www.thegatewaypundit.com

I expect there will be some voluntary and involuntary retirements in local popo in coming days and weeks....and I expect that a great many parents arent going to accept the "I was just following orders" bullshit
Click to expand...
Just send them to Mexico, they will fit right in with the Mexican police. Would be an easy transition since they already speak Spanish.
 
"I recall one who I knew personally who from the time we were in kindergarden everybody knew.
All through middle school , high school , everybody knew.
All the signs were there all his life , animal torture , sadistic tendencies .
Even at 10 -12 years old you knew never to turn your back on him.
His siblings knew and tried to get him locked up , court was having none of it.
He died in prison after getting life for splitting his mother's head with an hatchet.
Not a single person who knew him was surprised in the least."

Sounds like little Nicky Cruz, the Parkland shooter. Calls for bans on guns is just camouflage for the left's opposition to dealing with the mental health crisis in America.
 
SFC13557 said:
"I recall one who I knew personally who from the time we were in kindergarden everybody knew.
All through middle school , high school , everybody knew.
All the signs were there all his life , animal torture , sadistic tendencies .
Even at 10 -12 years old you knew never to turn your back on him.
His siblings knew and tried to get him locked up , court was having none of it.
He died in prison after getting life for splitting his mother's head with an hatchet.
Not a single person who knew him was surprised in the least."

Sounds like little Nicky Cruz, the Parkland shooter. Calls for bans on guns is just camouflage for the left's opposition to dealing with the mental health crisis in America.
Click to expand...

There's another side to this, though: any teacher can tell you about "those kids," the ones everyone watches out of the corner of their eye because every adult in the building knows, just knows, that they're going to bring a gun in and shoot up the place.

And they never do.

People just aren't as accurate as they think they are when trying to predict who'll do this and who won't. I count myself in that.
 
SFC13557 said:
"I recall one who I knew personally who from the time we were in kindergarden everybody knew.
All through middle school , high school , everybody knew.
All the signs were there all his life , animal torture , sadistic tendencies .
Even at 10 -12 years old you knew never to turn your back on him.
His siblings knew and tried to get him locked up , court was having none of it.
He died in prison after getting life for splitting his mother's head with an hatchet.
Not a single person who knew him was surprised in the least."

Sounds like little Nicky Cruz, the Parkland shooter. Calls for bans on guns is just camouflage for the left's opposition to dealing with the mental health crisis in America.
Click to expand...

The left thinks that everybody is a special flower. I suppose there is an "innocent" explanation for this way of looking at humanity , in that if you concede to the fact that some people are just "bad", maybe right from birth - it breaks apart the worldview of the left which revolves around completely ignoring all sorts of other inconvenient facts about humanity. Namely , men are not women, some people are smarter than others, some people are more physically capable than others, there is differences in behavior - and therefore outcome - between the different races ....... etc. In other words: the left would have to concede to the a lot of the points made by "conservatives" and/or nationalists. And therefore a lot of the liberal / clown-world bullet points that they use to rule over us - suddenly become moot.

The other way of looking at this is that they are simply evil and are actively pushing evil. I have to admit that at times I feel like Occam's Razor should apply here, and the whole "they're just evil and doing the devil's work" should be sufficient to explain what they are doing.
 
The system is not designed to deal with violent mentally boys, teachers, admin are loath to involve the authorities because of their guilt trip and the nonsense that every kid has potential. Just like DSS 's policy of returning kids to crack whore/abusive Mother's because of their misguided policy of keeping "families" together. The system is run by liberal social workers who don't believe in punishment.
 
SFC13557 said:
The system is not designed to deal with violent mentally boys, teachers, admin are loath to involve the authorities because of their guilt trip and the nonsense that every kid has potential. Just like DSS 's policy of returning kids to crack whore/abusive Mother's because of their misguided policy of keeping "families" together. The system is run by liberal social workers who don't believe in punishment.
Click to expand...

All you're doing is pointing out that "social" services - shouldn't be run by the government - in ANY way , shape - or form. You say "mis-guided policy of keeping families together" yet there is copious evidence over many years that social workers will invade families and take away children on the slightest of pretexes. So maybe the system see-saws between one extreme to another - take-away or don't take-away, but that seems to me to be yet more evidence of a fundamentally flawed system.
 
Picton said:
There's another side to this, though: any teacher can tell you about "those kids," the ones everyone watches out of the corner of their eye because every adult in the building knows, just knows, that they're going to bring a gun in and shoot up the place.

And they never do.

People just aren't as accurate as they think they are when trying to predict who'll do this and who won't. I count myself in that.
Click to expand...
Correct.

And again, there's my childhood friend.

And the fact that, frankly, were there a "MOST Likely to Go Postal in a Fast Food Restaurant" yearbook superlative, in grammar school (where Mike and I were classmates) I'd probably be in the top twenty. In high school - at "St. Charles" - if not number one certainly the top three. I'm convinced half the reason they let me graduate in three years (unheard of at the time) is to get me out of their hair in case Something Bad happened.
 
SpaceCritter said:
Correct.

And again, there's my childhood friend.

And the fact that, frankly, were there a "MOST Likely to Go Postal in a Fast Food Restaurant" yearbook superlative, in grammar school (where Mike and I were classmates) I'd probably be in the top twenty. In high school - at "St. Charles" - if not number one certainly the top three. I'm convinced half the reason they let me graduate in three years (unheard of at the time) is to get me out of their hair in case Something Bad happened.
Click to expand...
So why did he do it?
 
headednorth said:
So why did he do it?
Click to expand...
Easy answer:

Victim 1: old girlfriend.
Victim 2: guy he thought was old girlfriend's new boyfriend (but was, in fact, just the Duchess shift manager).

Actual answer is much more complex. He and another friend from grammar school had been corresponding regularly, and looking at their letters in hindsight, a descent into madness was apparent. Mike had left This Old Berg and joined the Navy, and for a couple years anyway, it looked like he was headed in a new, positive direction for himself. When the radio announced there had been a shooting at the Duchess in Ansonia, my first thoughts and fears were for him cuz I knew he had worked there... and then immediately dismissed it as that was some time ago, and I knew he was in the Navy, and that was (or should have been) long ago and far away. I was horrified when I found out he was the shooter.
 
calsdad said:
From Gabe Suarez:


(this came thru in email) :

RELUCTANCE TO ENGAGE

I have been asked about the reluctance to engage by the troops in Uvalde. I confess to be astounded by the inaction of the "Non-Responders". I never remember such a thing ever happening when I was on the job.

Some have suggested that the officers were afraid to be second guessed by the administrators of the agency. But in that job you are ALWAYS second guessed, yet that didn’t stop any of us from doing what was necessary.

Sadly, the fear of second guessing has created a culture of inaction. The last Chief I worked under – in the previous century - was a black supremacist that would rather bury ten cops than see one of them shoot anyone. His words..."No officer will ever be disciplined for NOT shooting". That created a culture of sanctioned cowardice.

Today that sentiment is still alive in the profession. The LE training I have done...and I don't like doing LE training...has shown me that the % of meat eaters hasn't changed. But over half of the ranks are essentially worthless in a real fight. They may have great skills and be fit and graduate all the tactical schools...but the fear of repercussions has them in a place where all they are is window dressing. Don't expect any gallantry there. Then there are those capable and willing, but they have lost the ability for critical thinking and are in essence automatons who will go and do as they are told…but nothing else.

I hate to refer to the "old days", but that is where my perspective comes from. Shit went down and you handled it. Your world view was that you were there to deploy on the bad guys.

My first OIS was what would today be called an Active Shooter. No mutual aid or anything of the sort. Two cars working graveyard...one in pursuit of a carjacking into South Central. My partner and I get the call...we go there...we locate the bad guy...sneak up to him...and end the movie for him. Done and done. No waiting for clearance...not nothing.

There are a myriad of ways to disobey stupid directives. That guy in Uvalde should have been run to ground and terminated in place before the chief or even the media ever got a call of what was happening.

There are another two factors at play.

The loss of qualified immunity. If I was still on the job…in all honesty...without qualified immunity, I would take my retirement and leave the sheep of the earth to fend for themselves.

Another factor is unionized police vs right-to-work. A unionized agency is protected from the whims of the politicians, and those officers are protected from the vindictiveness of administrators. My agency was unionized and so I could - with a credible plausible story - disobey a foolish order, and not be fired for it. In an agency lacking that, an officer could ostensibly be fired for disobedience. I have said in the past that the rank and file would not risk loss of their job by disobeying a direct order. I think this is an example of that sad state of affairs.

The other side of the coin is that an officer that knows what is happening and ignores a "stand by" order, goes in and kills the bad guy, thereby saving everyone, will rarely be fired. Can you imagine the lawsuit filed by such an officer for wrongful termination?

It is a large issue...but I suspect the culture of an agency begins with the leader of that agency. And that has a trickle down effect on how the officers behave. The more events that unfold like this, with inept and reluctant police action, the more people will begin to accept the notion that they need to take care of business themselves and never call for those who would not only muddy the waters but who would by inaction protect the bad guy from those who would remove him from the stage.

Gabriel Suarez​
Click to expand...

This is a retarded person. Everything he says he needs are exactly what cause all the problems we have.
 
KBCraig said:
Suarez misses the "old days" when he could just sneak up and kill someone, and he loves QI and police union protection.

He's part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Click to expand...

I just put up his posting as an example of what is out there for opinion. I do remember the "attitude" of cops in the 70s and 80s - which was pretty much "we can get away with anything".

The problem I think - is that all of the restraint that's been put on cops is that it's let a whole different group of crazies run loose. Yeah sure - cops shoot down individuals quite frequently and get away with it. For example.... as much as I hate BLM - I do think they had a little bit of a point in their bitching about how cops go after black men and get away with it. The problem is though..... there's another side to that coin because black men are responsible for a level of crime that far exceeds their numbers. It's two sides of shit covered coin.
 

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