21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas

headednorth said:
Again, I don't work in schools but deal with commercial entry doors all the time. They can be over come by a 5 year old. A stone 3/4" in diameter placed on the threshold on the latch side of the frame will stop it from latching. A napkin balled up and stuffed in the latch will do the same. Unless you have someone stationed at each door, they're easily defeated. Alarms on timers help. Doors open for longer than 30 seconds or whatever and it sounds until it's closed or disabled. Consequences for people who prop them open would help as well.

TBH, my first instinct was they changed the story to save the teacher. No one wants to live with the fact that all those kids died because you propped a door open rather than grabbing your keys or walking around to another door.
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The only real way to stop props is to have a two door system where only one opens at a time
 
not new guy said:
How many 10 year olds have said they were going to shoot someone for the one 10 year old who actually did in your anecdote? Tens or hundreds of thousands? Millions? I know my boys (all under 8) have said it. I'm sure I said it as a kid.

The only point is that context matters. Arresting kids for saying stupid shit isn't a solution any more than suspending them for chewing a pop tart into the shape of a pistol is.
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Conversely , what happens when you ignore it and one actually follows through ?
Same people screaming for heads now screaming for heads then.
F*cked if you do and f*cked if you don't.
You can't equate kids now to kids years ago . the ones raised feral retain only the physical form of the others.
Want to see a chilling video if it can still be found , watch the one where the two thirteen year olds bragging on social media about killing a woman pushing a baby stroller because she wouldn't give them a cigarette while waving the murder weapon and laughing about how they capped that bitch.
I promise someone out there was crying over those poor little boys be lead away in cuffs.
 
pastera said:
The only real way to stop props is to have a two door system where only one opens at a time
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I'm not familiar with such a system. I imagine that it works from outside in only? Otherwise propping one door open effectively locks people inside
 
Dadstoys said:
Conversely , what happens when you ignore it and one actually follows through ?
Same people screaming for heads now screaming for heads then.
F*cked if you do and f*cked if you don't.
You can't equate kids now to kids years ago . the ones raised feral retain only the physical form of the others.
Want to see a chilling video if it can still be found , watch the one where the two thirteen year olds bragging on social media about killing a woman pushing a baby stroller because she wouldn't give them a cigarette while waving the murder weapon and laughing about how they capped that bitch.
I promise someone out there was crying over those poor little boys be lead away in cuffs.
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Kids have always been cruel. Why destroy the youth of a generation with fear and adult-standards in a vain attempt to avoid these lightning strike-rare school shootings? People (not directed at you) need to step away from the 24/7 news cycle and regain some perspective.
 
headednorth said:
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At times like these it’s important to remember, as horrific as 19 dead children are, they do not compare to the 130,000,000 innocent men, women and children slaughtered by their own governments in the last century after letting themselves be disarmed.

Stay the course.

If freedom dies here, it dies forever.
 
KBCraig said:
I never thought that he was, and didn't understand how people got it conflated.

He rushed there and got his kid out. It was a different BP agent who was part of the entry team.
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I'm officially past the point of being able to follow this story. I don't get how it's newsworthy otherwise. Unless he lead a team in to grab the kids down the hall? I guess I need to just stop following this one until it all comes out.
 
headednorth said:
I'm not familiar with such a system. I imagine that it works from outside in only? Otherwise propping one door open effectively locks people inside
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Schools will always be a soft target. Period.

The school my kids went to had cypher locks on the doors (I think that's the right term). Every person on the campus knew the code. It's logistically impossible to 'lock' a school down, there's too many organic moving parts. Maybe if the school is completely self contained, even then there's lunch/recess where kids are outside in the open.

Not really replying to you, just following this train in the thread since I'm pretty much done with the tactics side of it. Can't follow that level of abortion any longer.
 
weekendracer said:
Schools will always be a soft target. Period.

The school my kids went to had cypher locks on the doors (I think that's the right term). Every person on the campus knew the code. It's logistically impossible to 'lock' a school down, there's too many organic moving parts. Maybe if the school is completely self contained, even then there's lunch/recess where kids are outside in the open.

Not really replying to you, just following this train in the thread since I'm pretty much done with the tactics side of it. Can't follow that level of abortion any longer.
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So, 2 armed and trained guards at each door will still be a soft target? I agree that transitional spaces will always be hard to protect, entering and leaving in large groups as an example, but, locking down the school and have people willing to protect it will not be a soft target.
 
SteelShooter said:
So, 2 armed and trained guards at each door will still be a soft target? I agree that transitional spaces will always be hard to protect, entering and leaving in large groups as an example, but, locking down the school and have people willing to protect it will not be a soft target.
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I live in a very small town and we have 3 schools located in different locations. I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t make a large building and keep all the children there but separate by ages like we do now.

Even though it’s larger with more students, being in one location would make it easier to secure and control access.

If there are armed guards, chances go way down that someone is going to attack it.
 
idefhavecovid said:
Your logic doesn’t add up at all here. Actually enforcing laws and enacting tighter control and psyche evals for everyone who wants to buy a gun will ONLY help. The problem is both the type of gun used and the mentality of the person committing the crime. It’s not black and white. We need a full scale approach to gun crime prevention.
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Where in the constitution does it say I need a psyche eval for anything?
 
Dadstoys said:
I won't disagree with the abuse part.
That could have been fixed had the will to do so been there.
Many of them were run by the same group that ended up shutting them down.
Politicians don't want a fix to anything , they want a sound bit .
There are a lot of very dangerous people wandering the streets because there is no place to put them.
They don't get locked up till they actually kill someone, even though everyone involved with them knows it's only a question of when not if.
Sending them back out on the street with a hand full of pills and a pat on the head ends up with dead people.
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probably the biggest problem in this country is no one actually wants to look forward and solve problems but simply just blame the other party. Rs and Ds are just different ends of the same putrid turd.
 
In God We Trust said:
911: “911, what is your emergency?”

Random guy: “hi, my buddy has been seeing a shrink and he is schizophrenic. He has been hearing voices telling him to shoot up the elementary school. I just saw him leave the house with a rifle in his hand and a duffel bag full of magazines.

I decided to follow him and he pulled into the school parking lot. He just got out of the car with a ballistic vest on, chambered a round in his rifle and walked through the front door of the school!”

911: “sir, your friend has done nothing illegal at this point, so there is nothing we can do. You DO realize that there are no more gun laws, commie?”

Sure that’s an extreme example, but it is the extreme cases that lead to mass shootings.

We certainly have way too many stupid gun laws, but there has to be some ground between the hypothetical situation I just typed and Maura’s mastubatory fantasies.
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was gonna post a similar question but not in story form. It's a super dangerous slippery slope to allow medical/psych info to limit rights.....and then on the other hand does anyone here really think an advanced schizophrenic who is unable to distinguish reality from a dream should be able to buy a gun? I'm not a "living breathing document type" yet I don't think the founders were infallible. At the time they wrote the constitution they thought mentally ill people were witches or possessed by demons.

A lot of people might say "price of freedom"....maybe. Maybe it's hard to answer until it's your kid getting lowered into the ground in a little super hero coffin. Any infringement is an infringement, but what do we do about the f***ing loonies?



1654143698831.png
 
jhblaze1 said:
was gonna post a similar question but not in story form. It's a super dangerous slippery slope to allow medical/psych info to limit rights.....and then on the other hand does anyone here really think an advanced schizophrenic who is unable to distinguish reality from a dream should be able to buy a gun? I'm not a "living breathing document type" yet I don't think the founders were infallible. At the time they wrote the constitution they thought mentally ill people were witches or possessed by demons.

A lot of people might say "price of freedom"....maybe. Maybe it's hard to answer until it's your kid getting lowered into the ground in a little super hero coffin. Any infringement is an infringement, but what do we do about the f***ing loonies?



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It all requires hard decisions. Do we have a need for paranoid schizophrenics on this Earth? Perhaps a future generation will nip that problem in the bud. The future is going to be full of tough decisions and the simple answer the government wants to hear is handing in the guns.
 
SteelShooter said:
So, 2 armed and trained guards at each door will still be a soft target? I agree that transitional spaces will always be hard to protect, entering and leaving in large groups as an example, but, locking down the school and have people willing to protect it will not be a soft target.
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Well, my experience with SRO's is one or two good ones, the rest were either meh or straight up worthless. There was one armed guard at Parkland(?)(the Florida school), he hid. Not sure where the SRO actually was in this one yet. I think you are asking for rational thought from an irrational person when it comes to school shooters.

I don't know the answer. I think a good mix of secure building and some type of response personnel (SRO or teachers) is the way to go.
 
Wooderson said:
That motherf***er needs to signal the return to tar and feathering. Jesus would have walked up in that police station with a cat o'nine tails and whipped his sorry ass right out into the middle of the street.
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That guy is so jittery it’s clear he f***ed up that is an awful spokesman/public speaker
 
I guess my point in all this is, I've responded to an active shooting situation 5 or 6 times in my career, depending on how you want to split hairs. It was another agent or LEO involved, not a school, so I guess it's different in a way. But at least I knew the person had the ability to fight back. When the call went out, it was like a switch flipped in my brain. I can't really tell you much about me responding to the scene, but it was 'get there now, whatever it takes'. Maybe I'm just wired different, but I just don't get a lot of what happened here.

It's weird, some parts of the story are crystal clear, some of it is foggy. I drove 40-50 miles one time, about the only thing I remember is the u-turn that started my run and running into my partner and finding out he wasn't hit. His truck was all shot up, but he was ok.
 
jhblaze1 said:
was gonna post a similar question but not in story form. It's a super dangerous slippery slope to allow medical/psych info to limit rights.....and then on the other hand does anyone here really think an advanced schizophrenic who is unable to distinguish reality from a dream should be able to buy a gun? I'm not a "living breathing document type" yet I don't think the founders were infallible. At the time they wrote the constitution they thought mentally ill people were witches or possessed by demons.

A lot of people might say "price of freedom"....maybe. Maybe it's hard to answer until it's your kid getting lowered into the ground in a little super hero coffin. Any infringement is an infringement, but what do we do about the f***ing loonies?



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If someone is dangerous, and we know it, we have a system that includes due process to remove them from society during that period. This is why the 4473 asks if you have "ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR [...] been committed to a mental institution." That system needs improvement, but that should be the answer.
 
SteelShooter said:
So, 2 armed and trained guards at each door will still be a soft target? I agree that transitional spaces will always be hard to protect, entering and leaving in large groups as an example, but, locking down the school and have people willing to protect it will not be a soft target.
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Two on each door?

My current building has at least seven doors I can think of off the top of my head, and it's on the smaller side. That's fourteen people...

Where I went to high school, in southern California, the number of ways onto that campus was (and still is) literally infinite. There are many, many buildings, each with at least 3-5 access doors. Some of the classrooms open directly out into the open air.

No school system can afford guards on every door. Every day. Staying alert when literally nothing is going on for weeks on end.
 
Mesatchornug said:
If someone is dangerous, and we know it, we have a system that includes due process to remove them from society during that period. This is why the 4473 asks if you have "ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR [...] been committed to a mental institution." That system needs improvement, but that should be the answer.
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While the psychologists say 5% of the mentally ill population are violent, they also say they have little idea who, of psychiatric in-patients diagnosed with mental illness, will commit violent acts - just a 12% correlation according to one large study. But that’s up to 12% from 5%.

"In many cases, even among people with a diagnosed mental illness, symptoms associated with the illness don’t explain a violent act, according to an analysis from the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Study of discharged psychiatric patients, a widely cited analysis conducted between 1992 and 1995. The study found that 12% of violent incidents were immediately preceded by a psychotic episode. The remaining incidents couldn’t be explained by symptoms associated with the person’s mental illness, according to the study, which followed 951 psychiatric patients ages 18 to 40 after discharge from state and university psychiatric inpatient units in Kansas City, Pittsburgh, and Worcester, Mass."

Prison populations bump that 5% up to 29% for those with mental illness jailed for violent offenses.

"A survey of inmates conducted by the Justice Department between 2011 and 2012 found mental illness in 17% of people in prison and 29% of people in jail for violent offenses. A national study of schizophrenic patients found that 3% had engaged in recent violence involving a weapon."

And yet, CCW permit holders are convicted on ANY crime over 100-fold lower than the general population. Given that most states are shall-issue based on passing a NICS check, simply passing the same NICS check when legally buying a gun strongly indicates that CCW-holders and those who buy guns legally are not a risk.

Criminals are let out of jails, not prosecuted for crimes, and the mentally I’ll remain largely untreated - and they go after honest, law-abiding gun owners with more gun laws to stop violent crime…total BS.

crimeresearch.org

Updated: Comparing conviction rates between police and concealed carry permit holders

A recent study provides numbers on police convictions over a three-year period from January 1, 2005 through December 31, 2007. This data was put together by doing news searches on media sources th…
crimeresearch.org crimeresearch.org
www.wsj.com

Less Than 5% of Violent Acts Are Linked to Mental Illness, Research Shows

Diagnosed mental-health conditions can contribute to violence, but predicting who might act violently is all but impossible, according to researchers.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
 

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