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2009 IDPA MA State Championship - June 6 & 7
- Thread starter MAShooter
- Start date
Damn! That sucks! At least you didn't get an FTN!
Maybe they should change the COF to say "strong hand... that means not both stupid?"
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Serioulsy- Glad you guys got to shoot the match!! What is the record between you guys? De vs. Hanwei
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Here's the video of the double feed.
I'll start another thread with all the videos if I can finish them tomorrow. The cam ran out of batteries so they are charging now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO06q8ogbuA
I'll start another thread with all the videos if I can finish them tomorrow. The cam ran out of batteries so they are charging now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO06q8ogbuA
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Oh...
And how could I forget: I won a gun from S&W!
And how could I forget: I won a gun from S&W!
jkelly
Shooting at the big range in heaven
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Hanwei,Thanks John! And thanks for SO'ing the indoor stages![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
Your welcome, it was a lot fun to SO with Dale and as usual it was nice to see all of you guys.
Respectfully,
jkelly
Last edited:
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Maybe they should change the COF to say "strong hand... that means not both stupid?"
Not sure that would have helped. I asked jkelly some questions before shooting about one handed shooting so I was definitely aware.
As I was about to shoot I remember jkelly saying "6 rounds to the top target. Strong hand only. Strong hand only...Strong hand only...Strong hand only...Strong hand only...Strong hand only...Strong hand only...
What do I do? I draw and grip the pistol with 2 hands and proceed to fire.
Then I realize on the 3rd shot that I was fuxored and switched to strong hand...at which point I lost count and proceeded to put an extra round down range which resulted in a second procedural.
As much as I want my brother to fail miserab... I mean......... those double feeds sucked.
What causes double feeds? Bad magazine?
With a Glock, it must be a tear in the time space continuum, because glocks never jam
Double feeds are a mag issue, since it was on the reload. when slamming the mag home on a slide back gun, only the mag lips will control the top round, if they are loose, the round will pop up high and a 2nd round will follow
Since you asked, after watching your posted video, it's pretty clear your malfunction is not a "double-feed" malfunction. A double-feed malfunction occurs when a round is in the chamber and a second round attempts to feed into the chamber, i.e. the gun is trying to feed a second cartridge into a chamber that already holds one.As much as I want my brother to fail miserab... I mean...
What causes double feeds? Bad magazine?
Here's a pic of what that looks like:
Note that the slide has started forward, and there's already a round in the chamber. Classic "double-feed."
In your video, it's clear that the malfunction occurs just after your reload, and prior to any round being in the chamber. When you sent the slide forward, the round didn't feed. You repeatedly racked the slide and got the chamber clear and a round to feed. In a double-feed malfunction, not only does the chamber hold a round (or unextracted case), but also it results in a true "jam." You cannot clear a double-feed without removing the magazine, as the slide will simply continue to attempt to feed that first round, and there's no place for it to go.
Judging from your video, it looks like the slide didn't take the top round into battery, and it was cleared by repeated manipulation of slide, (along with a tap on the mag, IIRC). I would look to the ammo (if they're reloads, maybe they're not sized correctly, or maybe that one wasn't), or the magazine (factory or aftermarket). Additional suspects usually include a dirty gun or rough feed ramp, but if you're shooting a Glock, you can usually rule those out.
My $.02.
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With a Glock, it must be a tear in the time space continuum, because glocks never jam
Double feeds are a mag issue, since it was on the reload. when slamming the mag home on a slide back gun, only the mag lips will control the top round, if they are loose, the round will pop up high and a 2nd round will follow
Thanks. I need to figure out what happened as it happened to me twice. That killed my time.
What do you mean by loose mag lips?
Loose lips are never a good thing.
Since you asked, after watching your posted video, it's pretty clear your malfunction is not a "double-feed" malfunction. A double-feed malfunction occurs when a round is in the chamber and a second round attempts to feed into the chamber, i.e. the gun is trying to feed a second cartridge into a chamber that already holds one.
Here's a pic of what that looks like:
Note that the slide has started forward, and there's already a round in the chamber. Classic "double-feed."
In your video, it's clear that the malfunction occurs just after your reload, and prior to any round being in the chamber. When you sent the slide forward, the round didn't feed. You repeatedly racked the slide and got the chamber clear and a round to feed. In a double-feed malfunction, not only does the chamber hold a round (or unextracted case), but also it results in a true "jam." You cannot clear a double-feed without removing the magazine, as the slide will simply continue to attempt to feed that first round, and there's no place for it to go.
Judging from your video, it looks like the slide didn't take the top round into battery, and it was cleared by repeated manipulation of slide, (along with a tap on the mag, IIRC). I would look to the ammo (if they're reloads, maybe they're not sized correctly, or maybe that one wasn't), or the magazine (factory or aftermarket). Additional suspects usually include a dirty gun or rough feed ramp, but if you're shooting a Glock, you can usually rule those out.
My $.02.
that was my gun. It didn't look exactly like that but pretty close. When I looked down I saw one round partially in the chamber (not quite as far as the one in your pic) and a round underneath. The round in the chamber only had the bullet head itself barely started so the headcase part of the round was angled upwards (the round below was pushing it up)
When I racked the slide the ejection port and the movement of the barrel during that point in time seemed like it dislodged the top round.
When it occurred again, I remember trying to rip out the mag but it wouldn't come out...that's indicative of a double feed right?
I suspect if I had tried to rip out the mag in the video that I posted it would not have come out either.
The ammo was factory winchester white box and I'm shooting a factory barrel.
The big key here is that you cannot clear a "double feed" if you don't remove the mag, as the top round in the mag will continue to apply force to the round in the chamber, and racking the slide just keeps trying to "feed" the round with no where to go.
This is just a guess, but based on the video and your description, I suspect the mag lips are loose, and the force of inserting the mag during the reload "popped" the top round loose. That round did not chamber, but was forced cockeyed outside the chamber. By repeatedly manipulating the slide, you got that round to either 1) chamber; or more likely 2) fall out, allowing the next round to chamber.
In this scenario, I would suspect the magazine.
This is just a guess, but based on the video and your description, I suspect the mag lips are loose, and the force of inserting the mag during the reload "popped" the top round loose. That round did not chamber, but was forced cockeyed outside the chamber. By repeatedly manipulating the slide, you got that round to either 1) chamber; or more likely 2) fall out, allowing the next round to chamber.
In this scenario, I would suspect the magazine.
The distance of the feed lips are to far apart. they should be .355-.365 (assuming Glcok mag uses standard specs)
Is it always with the same mag? If it is, just throw the mag away. Number your mags if you don't already
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I think you may be right. It definitely didn't look like it really began to chamber a round but there was one just sort of hanging out.
I'm not too caught up in my mag functions. Why would a worn out spring cause a double feed?
So I should be looking at replacing the entire mag? I should have thought it was a mag issue and remembered to note the mag I was using at the time.
P.S. Despite numerous courses dealing with Type 1, 2, and 3 malfunctions, and practicing them until my freakin' hands bled, I find that in the heat of battle (a match), if I clear the malfunction and move on, I am still a very poor historian when it comes to "reconstructing" what I did or what the gun did. I mention this because the video may be your best friend; your own personal memory of what happened is extremely unreliable.
A personal, embarrassing, example: I was shooting the CT State match a year or two ago, with a gun that had, in the past, given me some feeding problems. On the no light stage, I'm moving toward the last target when I come up and bang...nothing! I can feel that the slide did not go into battery.
Tap
Rack...the slide will not go forward! Type 3! Damn this gun!
Lock
Strip
Rack
Rack
Rack
Reload
Tap
Rack
BANG!
I am equal parts disappointed with the gun and patting myself on the back for a fast malfunction drill. Wicked fast.
It wasn't until a couple of days later--after I had gone over it in my head many, many times, and complained about the gun letting me down when I needed it--as I was thinking the match over, and looking at my stage sheets...and thinking...and counting...that I realized that I had simply SHOT THE GUN DRY. Because it was dark, the slide locking back as designed combined with my suspicions about the gun led me to believe I had a double-feed. Although the malfunction drill "cleared" the problem, so would have simply thumbing the mag release and reloading. But immediately after the stage I would have testified in a court of law that the gun had malfunctioned in a specific manner.
A personal, embarrassing, example: I was shooting the CT State match a year or two ago, with a gun that had, in the past, given me some feeding problems. On the no light stage, I'm moving toward the last target when I come up and bang...nothing! I can feel that the slide did not go into battery.
Tap
Rack...the slide will not go forward! Type 3! Damn this gun!
Lock
Strip
Rack
Rack
Rack
Reload
Tap
Rack
BANG!
I am equal parts disappointed with the gun and patting myself on the back for a fast malfunction drill. Wicked fast.
It wasn't until a couple of days later--after I had gone over it in my head many, many times, and complained about the gun letting me down when I needed it--as I was thinking the match over, and looking at my stage sheets...and thinking...and counting...that I realized that I had simply SHOT THE GUN DRY. Because it was dark, the slide locking back as designed combined with my suspicions about the gun led me to believe I had a double-feed. Although the malfunction drill "cleared" the problem, so would have simply thumbing the mag release and reloading. But immediately after the stage I would have testified in a court of law that the gun had malfunctioned in a specific manner.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks to everyone that attended the match this weekend. It was great to see many familiar and new faces.
I learned a valuable lesson at this match about chronoing your ammo before the match. DO NOT trust the velocity that is listed in a reloading manual(Lee) is what you will get out of your gun. The manual stated that I should have gotten around 750 fps with the load I was using. I only needed 717 fps (CDP w/ 230 gr bullet). I figured that there might be some variation, but I thought that I would have enough room to spare. I was wrong. My first shot chronoed at 580 fps and the next 2 in the low 600's hence the match DQ. So anyone out there that is debating on wether or not to chrono their loads before going to a big match I would definetly reccomend that you take the time and make sure you make power factor.
See you all next year ( or at our monthly matches)
Jay Litchfield
Thanks to everyone that attended the match this weekend. It was great to see many familiar and new faces.
I learned a valuable lesson at this match about chronoing your ammo before the match. DO NOT trust the velocity that is listed in a reloading manual(Lee) is what you will get out of your gun. The manual stated that I should have gotten around 750 fps with the load I was using. I only needed 717 fps (CDP w/ 230 gr bullet). I figured that there might be some variation, but I thought that I would have enough room to spare. I was wrong. My first shot chronoed at 580 fps and the next 2 in the low 600's hence the match DQ. So anyone out there that is debating on wether or not to chrono their loads before going to a big match I would definetly reccomend that you take the time and make sure you make power factor.
See you all next year ( or at our monthly matches)
Jay Litchfield
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That's actually kind of funny.
I have night vision on my video camera and will be posting some videos soon.
It would have caught you tapping and racking an empty mag haha .
That was my fear. That's too bad. Were you allowed to shoot but not score?
I have to buy a chrono.
I was the SO for Underwhere (nice to meet you BTW - now I know who you are. You too Hanwie). Whatever the malfunction, it couldn't have happened at a worse time! It didn't look like a double feed because the slide was almost closed. Underwhere showed great sportsmanship. He took it in stride with a lot of grace. More so than most guys, me included.
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I huffed, puffed, cried and peed just a wee bit.
After work I'm going home to look at some lips.
Glock mags are cheap- toss them when they show the first sign of problems. Mark them and only use them at practices. I've also noticed as the get old- they bulge and don't "drop free"... toss em.... it's not worth the aggravation... and at minimum- you elimate a variable to the fun equation.
TY43215
NES Member
Do you chamber check your ammo prior to a major match?
I even chamber check factory ammo. But it still didn't help me. Only practice will.
No excuses for my poor reloads and slow times except poor preparation. I go back to basics preparing for A7 as of today.
But, it was a great match and I got to see a lot of people I have not seen in a while. This was my last IDPA Major for this year so see you at the USPSA Matches.
Update:
Just wanted to note the great sportsmanship that our fellow IDPA shooters have demonstrated. I received a few emails pointing out errors, such as missing penalties, that affected their scores in a negative way, and in some cases changing the placement of them in the match. To see that such class and sportsmanship is alive and well is a wonderful thing! Results will be finalized at 9pm on 6/9. Please send any other errors/corrections to me at [email protected].
Dave
Just wanted to note the great sportsmanship that our fellow IDPA shooters have demonstrated. I received a few emails pointing out errors, such as missing penalties, that affected their scores in a negative way, and in some cases changing the placement of them in the match. To see that such class and sportsmanship is alive and well is a wonderful thing! Results will be finalized at 9pm on 6/9. Please send any other errors/corrections to me at [email protected].
Dave
Couple more edits. Results have now been finalized. Congrats to the winners and everyone else who participated.
http://www.rodgun-nb.org/ap/results/2009maidpa.htm
http://www.rodgun-nb.org/ap/results/2009maidpa.htm
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