1903 A3 or NM for Match Shooting? '03 NM Found...

[Mountain]

edit-

Found an '03 National Match I really liked. Posting preview pics below.

Hi Folks,

As a couple of you may know, I like to shoot a few J.C. Garand matches with my M1- caught that bug from a mac1911 NES karma. My M1 is a CMP Special on a '44 receiver and will hit the 10 ring all day if it weren't for me screwing up the shots. I think my best score has been 461/500 but looks like I should usually be shooting in the mid 400's. Hope to improve that, a lot...

Now that the new year is upon us, I'd like to start looking for a 1903 A3 or National Match with similar accuracy. Here's the slight catch: While I really like the Special, I'd like this one to be more 'vintage' with an original or at least arsenal stock and mostly correct parts. Not looking for 100% original, pristine collector grade stuff- just something vintage-ish that's above all a good shooter. C style or scant stock OK- no straight stocks. Must be CMP rules compliant.

I've started the usual web browsing but really am not that familiar with 1903 A3's and National Match rifles. I realize I could be paying much more for a NM & that's not a problem. This might be the only gun I buy this year so may as well be something awesome. I am aware that I'll need to watch for re-worked drill rifles and welded receivers possibly even barrels. Anything else to watch for? Typical prices for a standard A3 and also a NM? Thanks in advance, I'll check with the CMP forum too but I always like the info from NES.

 

[mac1911]

just as note a original 1903a3 NM will run you 5k plus also a a3 NM will not be CMP as issued compliant, the addition of the modified front sight and redffield rears sight is a DQ you would have to run with the match rifes. 1903NM will be up there also.

http://www.nationalmatcharmory.com/homepage5.html these guys and a few others can build you a sweet as issued springfield match rules compliant rifle also.
you seen what my 1903a4 clone can do with that crap repro scope and HXP and thats just a rock ridge machine build. I think you could find a decent original 1903a3 and only need to make sure the stock fits nice and the trigger is nice.

my 1903a3 that I shoot in the \springfield match does very well also. Although i needed to replace the stock which was not so bad but if your not patient with wood it can be frustrating.

 

[Mountain]

just as note a original 1903a3 NM will run you 5k plus also a a3 NM will not be CMP as issued compliant, the addition of the modified front sight and redffield rears sight is a DQ you would have to run with the match rifes. 1903NM will be up there also.

http://www.nationalmatcharmory.com/homepage5.html these guys and a few others can build you a sweet as issued springfield match rules compliant rifle also.

Thanks mac- 5K plus not CMP compliant wouldn't work. 2.5K maybe, less is always better. But an 03 NM is compliant? Also the 03 NM's typically have a C-style stock? Maybe I should let go of the NM idea since my purpose is not particularly for collecting. I have this Camp Perry pipe dream & now have lots of vacation this year. Would like to shoot JC Garand, Springfield, and Vintage Military Rifle matches- at least two of the three, perhaps all three.

I'd prefer a vintage stock with some 'patina' if reasonable match accuracy is feasible. If I had to go new, I'd probably just go all out and have a new match barrel and some type of fancy stock. The one thing I don't like about my Garand is the new stock. Good quality & allows for great accuracy, but a little bland for my taste.

 

[mac1911]

Thanks mac- 5K plus not CMP compliant wouldn't work. 2.5K maybe, less is always better. But an 03 NM is compliant? Also the 03 NM's typically have a C-style stock? Maybe I should let go of the NM idea since my purpose is not particularly for collecting. I have this Camp Perry pipe dream & now have lots of vacation this year. Would like to shoot JC Garand, Springfield, and Vintage Military Rifle matches- at least two of the three, perhaps all three.

I'd prefer a vintage stock with some 'patina' if reasonable match accuracy is feasible. If I had to go new, I'd probably just go all out and have a new match barrel and some type of fancy stock. The one thing I don't like about my Garand is the new stock. Good quality & allows for great accuracy, but a little bland for my taste.

If you want a really nice looking new military contour C stock your going to pay some good coin just for the wood. The barrel has to match the original profile also. I suggest getting ahold of chuckindenver on cmp forums and see what he has or can do. I love the 1903s but the A3 sights are a added plus.
you could find a 1903a3 NM and just install the original peep sight vs the target sights

you can try DGR for a new stock set. http://dgrguns.com/New-03-or-03A3-Main-Stocks.htm you can also see if wenig custom stocks has any high grade walnut for a sexy rifle.


the new CMP rule books for Games and Service Rifle comes out on the 5th
I was all over this same problem few years back and found a 1903a3 that was not to far gone to bring back to military specs. new stock and a few small parts. its a ten ring rifle all day if I do my part

 

[jpm]

You can find nice 03 NM rifles for $2500ish. Personally I think they look so much better than any A3 out there. You do want paperwork on it though if you're paying that much, there are a lot of NM looking 03s that aren't really NM but may have the characteristics. Watch out for fake star gauge stamp on the muzzle for one thing. I think most real NM rifles will be listed in the SRS too.

 

[Mountain]

You can find nice 03 NM rifles for $2500ish. Personally I think they look so much better than any A3 out there. You do want paperwork on it though if you're paying that much, there are a lot of NM looking 03s that aren't really NM but may have the characteristics. Watch out for fake star gauge stamp on the muzzle for one thing. I think most real NM rifles will be listed in the SRS too.

Thanks- So if listed in the SRS it should be the real deal? Is the SRS accessible to check a serial number? One challenge is that I'd prefer the A3 style sight over the 1903, and any special match sight on a 03 National Match would not be CMP legal. A true NM rifle would be pretty awesome and the budget is not a problem. What is a problem is my lack of knowledge for these...

 

[mac1911]

Thanks- So if listed in the SRS it should be the real deal? Is the SRS accessible to check a serial number? One challenge is that I'd prefer the A3 style sight over the 1903, and any special match sight on a 03 National Match would not be CMP legal. A true NM rifle would be pretty awesome and the budget is not a problem. What is a problem is my lack of knowledge for these...

Yes that is they key.
The national match program for the 1903s was a longer program and more rifles. So they are easier to find. There is documented serial #s for them.
The 1903a3 NM was short lived and from memory less than 200 where actually put out.
Remember these rifles where used at the national's where rules are a bit different.
The NRA has service rifle and Match. The NM would run in the Match rifle class.
More confusing is the CMP service rifle and the CMP games matches.
Different rules. I don't even think you can shoot a 1903 or M1 in the cmp service rifle match.?

 

[jpm]

SRS isn't available online unfortunately, you need to ask someone who owns the books to search them for you. There's a couple of guys on CMP forum who do this.

 

[mac1911]

Approx 29k 1903 NM where made along with some special builds. SA also built up some rifles with star gauged barrels for NRA members.
My Springfield guru is on vacation till April so I can't get in touch. He's got just about every 1903 variant. Has a documented heavy barrel one that's just impressive!

 

[mac1911]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...s-record-in-springfield-rifle-match-at-perry/

 

[Mountain]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...s-record-in-springfield-rifle-match-at-perry/

Q: Was anything special done to accurize your rifle?

Dennis: No. This was the first match for this stock though. I think that might be why I shot two 9s in prone slow fire — it was still settling in. Nothing has been done to any part of the rifle to make it more accurate. The rifle is “as-is” from the CMP … complete with nasty trigger. Before I shoot it again though I am going to swap out the front sight blade for a fatter USMC type blade so I can see it [better].


Impressive regardless of circumstance. Somehow I think the fitting of the new stock was done very carefully.

Now where to find a CMP '03 just like Mr. DeMille's...

 

[mac1911]

https://books.google.com/books?id=v...w to identify a 1903a3 national match&f=false

some info if you have not found thisw yet.

Creedmor sells the 1903 and a3s now. better price through the cmp. I think denis won the cmp games again in 2013 with one of the rock ridge rifles. Although i believe he did smooth up the action and trigger as they cxome heavy parked. Mu A4 clone is like sandpaper! I will polish at somepoint. My 03a3 was a ex match rifle for many years so its very smooth and trigger is right at 3.5#s
as for his nasty trigger..... A3s even when not very good are usually not bad.....if that makes sense

 

[Mountain]

Had a nice conversation with Eric at National Match Armory. Great guy with a lot of good suggestions. Lead time not to bad, cost is comparable to similar top end match work and he could either provide the donor rifle or I could. Would be about the same $ as if I found an '03 NM. Less hassle dealing with Mass if I send one I already own.

I do think I'll drop the '03 NM idea, however. Though my eyes are pretty good now (if not jet lagged), I'll do better with the A3 sights. At my age it's only a matter of time. So it's looking like a match build at this point.

I have a lead on a local A3 that might be in very good, un-adulterated shape. Could always pick one up and shoot to see how it does then go from there. I lucked out with my Garand Special and it's a great shooter considering the cost. Therefore I feel 'justified' in going all out for the A3, LOL.

 

[mac1911]

Had a nice conversation with Eric at National Match Armory. Great guy with a lot of good suggestions. Lead time not to bad, cost is comparable to similar top end match work and he could either provide the donor rifle or I could. Would be about the same $ as if I found an '03 NM. Less hassle dealing with Mass if I send one I already own.

I do think I'll drop the '03 NM idea, however. Though my eyes are pretty good now (if not jet lagged), I'll do better with the A3 sights. At my age it's only a matter of time. So it's looking like a match build at this point.

I have a lead on a local A3 that might be in very good, un-adulterated shape. Could always pick one up and shoot to see how it does then go from there. I lucked out with my Garand Special and it's a great shooter considering the cost. Therefore I feel 'justified' in going all out for the A3, LOL.

do you have a CR license?

 

[Mountain]

do you have a CR license?

No. Not sure I'll get one. If I need to ship things via FFL I have some good ones to work with.

 

[mac1911]

No. Not sure I'll get one. If I need to ship things via FFL I have some good ones to work with.

One of my friends has his dads M1 full blown match bedded heavy douglas barrel from National match armory.. modified handguards. his dad was like Franco shot for the navy.

 

[Mountain]

One of my friends has his dads M1 full blown match bedded heavy douglas barrel from National match armory.. modified handguards. his dad was like Franco shot for the navy.

That's quite a rifle- IIRC substantial steel insert bedding, something like 1/2 MOA...

 

[mac1911]

That's quite a rifle- IIRC substantial steel insert bedding, something like 1/2 MOA...

It's a great gun his dad was a high master NRA. All sorts of other pins and such. He passed back in 2004. He got this rifle in 2002 if I recall. He has another M1 that was a original SA national match done up by his armorer in the navy. That he shot until the mid 80s and went to M1a then to the ar in the 90s.
I have yet to get to shoot it. His uncle has possession and in charge of the estate and I,guess he doesn't get possession until his uncle passes.? He was also into those crazy space TUBB guns and palma type shooting.

 

[Mountain]

Found a 1903 National Match I really liked & decided to go for it. Seller has dozens of '03's and a good reputation. Low 1.4M serial, comes with a SRS letter and copy of original bill of sale. Mentioned I planned to shoot it in a Springfield match every now and then & he said I'd be pleased to shoot it. Says he had made some 1-1/2" groups prone,sling, with sandbags. I'd be more than happy with that even if a little optimistic.

Will be a while before it makes its way to the PRM, but here's a few teaser pics:











Couldn't find any glaring issues. Stock appears to be rubbed down with BLO or tung oil. More or less what I was looking for- something relatively interesting yet shoot-able. Might still get an A3, though only enough budget for a beater now.

I have a leather Turner sling on my M1 and biothane for the AR. I think I'll get a Ron Brown for this but may put it on my M1 and the Turner on the '03.

Any tools that are a must have for a 1903?

 

[mac1911]

OMG your gonna shoot it....

 

[jpm]

That's exactly how the NM stock is supposed to look. They were heavily oiled and are simply gorgeous IMO. Looks like yours went through a couple of re-arsenals. I see what looks like a Raritan Arsenal cartouche just above the Augusta Arsenal cartouche.

First thing you want to do is lose the sight cover. That's not for shooting with unless its the USMC version which has a large loop (yours looks to be the standard sight protector). Check the butt trap to see if the cleaning kit or anything else is in there. No tools you really need other than a flat screwdriver.

 

[mac1911]

Depending on what you like for a sight picture the hood works pretty good at 200 with the SR target.

Maybe a,nickel plated oiler and a 03 combo tool?

As for the sling....after using the Brown sling all year I like it much better than the Turner. The brown is a bit beefier and holds better.
The turners are great to I just give a edge to the Brown.

 

[Mountain]

Thanks JPM- good info as I'm still learning as I go regarding '03's.

What is it about the standard sight covers that are not good for shooting? Too small and obstructs vision? Rattles? I'd think anything that kills glare on the front sight would be a good thing. If I did remove, is there a trick how to do it without marring the barrel? Again, thanks...

edit- Thanks mac1911 too. Helpful at 200 yds would be great.

 

[jpm]

They were never supposed to be left on for shooting. They're to protect the sight blade only and were meant to be removed and discarded before the rifle was issued. I'd probably just cut the top of the loop and peel it off if I didn't want to mar the barrel. The thing is, it would have been marred a bit when it was put on there. As for shooting with it, it is my understanding that it is too small and does obstruct the sight picture. if you really want one, I'd track down a USMC version and that way any marring caused by removing the sight protector would be covered by installing the USMC sight hood.

 

[mac1911]

Mine is a reproduction hood. I bought from Bill bentz along with the .100" USMC front sight made to the length I needed to zero my rifle at 100 yards.
Mountain: only way to see if the hood works for you is to try it. Yes it was not designed as front aperture but it works pretty well for target shooting. You have what looks like the larger loop.
The front sight cover is legal for cmp Springfield match to stay attached 4.2.3 of the new rule book.. Also now the new rules no,sling required at standing..

Also I never noticed this,before but any early 1903 with serial # 800,000 or less can not be used in cmp matches..
The NM rifles can be used in the cmp vintage match as,long as the trigger is 3.5lbs+, no action bedding and retains the original style sights.

Can't wait for a range report...

 

[Maninblue1861]

Nice rifle. Glad to see it being shot

 

[Sweeney]

The Marines used a larger version of the sight protector and kept it on as a sight hood to go along with their taller, wider front sight as it centered the tip of the sight in the hoop. The standard sight protector doesn't center the tip of the front sight in the hoop and can hinder sight alignment.

This the hood I made for my '03 to compliment the Bill Bentz Marine front sight. This was before Bill had the dies made to produce the Marine hood.

 

[mac1911]

The Marines used a larger version of the sight protector and kept it on as a sight hood to go along with their taller, wider front sight as it centered the tip of the sight in the hoop. The standard sight protector doesn't center the tip of the front sight in the hoop and can hinder sight alignment.

This the hood I made for my '03 to compliment the Bill Bentz Marine front sight. This was before Bill had the dies made to produce the Marine hood.

Nice, yours looks more uniformly round than my Bill Bentz hood.
you should make some more hoods!

 

[Sweeney]

Nice, yours looks more uniformly round than my Bill Bentz hood.
you should make some more hoods!

I cnc milled mine from a solid bar of 4130 chro-moly, so, yeah, it's pretty round. It was a colossal waste of metal but fun. The back 'strap' is a separate piece TIG welded on...the front is just part of the whole.

 

[mac1911]

I cnc milled mine from a solid bar of 4130 chro-moly, so, yeah, it's pretty round. It was a colossal waste of metal but fun. The back 'strap' is a separate piece TIG welded on...the front is just part of the whole.

I would get DQ'd for that front sight? Looks good though.