Yet another 'noob' AR15/M4 MA legal question...

[CLMN]

I searched the archives and active posts with no luck, so here I am! Please be kind to an old man!

I recently purchased a brand new MA-compliant Bushmaster M4A3. In order to accommodate my physical handicaps, I will need to add a vertical foregrip and shorten the "pinned" collapsible buttstock.

The best vertical foregrip to accommodate my unusual handicap has been a royal pain in the butt to find (none seem to fit/feel right), but I don't see any MA legal roadblocks in that regard. Shortening or replacing the pinned collapsible stock is another matter that I need to better understand.

First let me say that while this new rifle was bought primarily to be a shooter, I am also concerned about retaining decent value. In other words, I don't want to do anything that can't be reversed and restored to its original "as bought" condition (other than normal wear & tear).

The dealer I bought it from, a great dealer and popular sponsor here, spoke about unpinning, moving and re-pinning the buttstock into a new position that would accommodate my needs... once I figure out what that "ideal" length is, of course.

What would be involved with this... i.e., should I try to do this myself? Or is it best left to a gunsmith? Would it reduce the rifle's value? Especially if it had to be repositioned more than once? In MA, is there a legal (lower) limit to rifle length that I need to be concerned about? Would I be able to use it unpinned... even for just a day or two (perhaps out of state?)... to try different lengths? Or is the pinned MA-compliant stock unable to function without a pin?

Alternatively, if shortening the original pinned buttstock would reduce value or otherwise cosmetically damage the rifle, is there a better way? Should I buy a replacement stock... either for temporary experimentation or permanent use until I sell it?

Keep me MA legal here guys! I would not do well in jail!!!

Thanks in advance for any & all ideas and serious help.

CLMN

 

[vellnueve]

IIRC, the Bushmaster "pinned" stocks are actually built on rifle-length buffers and can't be shortened. You'd probably be better off buying a new stock and having it pinned at the appropriate length. Try someone's pre-ban on for size and see what length you want it at.

 

[icyclefar]

IIRC, the Bushmaster "pinned" stocks are actually built on rifle-length buffers and can't be shortened. You'd probably be better off buying a new stock and having it pinned at the appropriate length. Try someone's pre-ban on for size and see what length you want it at.

and if this is your direction, you will also need a new buffer and spring because the original Bushmaster components will be rifle length

 

[CLMN]

IIRC, the Bushmaster "pinned" stocks are actually built on rifle-length buffers and can't be shortened. You'd probably be better off buying a new stock and having it pinned at the appropriate length. Try someone's pre-ban on for size and see what length you want it at.

and if this is your direction, you will also need a new buffer and spring because the original Bushmaster components will be rifle length

Well, now I'm very glad that I asked! Thank you for your help!

CLMN

 

[Bob P]

You might wish to consider an Ace short stock - provided the length works for you. There'd be no pinning involved but you'd still have to change out the buffer and spring to a carbine length one.

 

[CLMN]

You might wish to consider an Ace short stock - provided the length works for you. There'd be no pinning involved but you'd still have to change out the buffer and spring to a carbine length one.

Thanks for the suggestion Bob. I'm going to the Marlboro show tomorrow. Do you think there will be some there to look at?

Funny thing is that I really won't know the length I'll need until: a) I get a vertical forestock that works for me, and, b) I try out some different lengths.

Maybe I'll do my shopping at Marlboro and buy at W. Springfield???

CLMN

 

[Bob P]

Thanks for the suggestion Bob. I'm going to the Marlboro show tomorrow. Do you think there will be some there to look at?

Funny thing is that I really won't know the length I'll need until: a) I get a vertical forestock that works for me, and, b) I try out some different lengths.

Maybe I'll do my shopping at Marlboro and buy at W. Springfield???

CLMN

I didn't see any there last year but you might find something with it on - I think ChetD's got one on his AR so you might want to PM him - he's a good guy - about it. I've got an Ace on mine but it's the full length.

 

[CLMN]

I didn't see any there last year but you might find something with it on - I think ChetD's got one on his AR so you might want to PM him - he's a good guy - about it. I've got an Ace on mine but it's the full length.

Funny thing is that I really liked the 'look' of the fake/MA-compliant (pinned) collapsible stock. It will be a disappointment for sure unless I can retain that look (or close)... although better to have something that fits me right than to just have a pretty collector in a box.

For whatever reason, I thought this MA-compliant M4A3 was going to "fit" me better than it does. I ordered it based on reputation (of Bushmaster) and the specs alone. I was taken a bit by surprise when the buttstock turned out to be too long to comfortably accommodate my situation.

CLMN

 

[CLMN]

Update: The vertical grip is in... and while I can hold the M4 in a shooting position surprisingly well at the current pinned buttstock length, it still appears that it would be to my advantage to eventually shorten it to fit me perfectly.

Opinions on exactly how to do this were all over the map from the gunsmiths and vendors at the Marlboro show. Regardless, all options suggested to me were under $100 to implement. Some approaches sounded a lot better than others. No one seemed to be too concerned about the rifle spring and buffer. Some said they could stay... others planned to replace them... some didn't specifically say one way or the other. Regardless, it seemed to be no big deal cost-wise.

The real dilemma will be in figuring out the optimum length to best accommodate my handicap under a variety of shooting situations and conditions. To do this legally, it would appear that I'll have to borrow someone else's pre-ban w/vertical foregrip for a while. If I can't do that, I believe that I am (legally) screwed here in Taxachusetts... or am I?

I am still looking for suggestions on how I can do this legally (within MA or outside of MA) with my own M4. If anyone has any ideas they wish to share, please post or PM me. Thanks for the help!

CLMN

 

[Tim94gt]

You could also buy a carbine length buffer assembly from bushmaster, then use your existing stock. The kit should include the tube, buffer and spring. Then you can find the desired location and pin it.

 

[CLMN]

You could also buy a carbine length buffer assembly from bushmaster, then use your existing stock. The kit should include the tube, buffer and spring.

Okay... that part I understand, more or less.

Then you can find the desired location and pin it.

But how does this approach help me to find the optimum location? This part I don't understand.

I'm probably missing something (remember, I am a total "noob" to all this) or just not being clear enough here. Unless I can borrow or rent a pre-ban carbine w/vertical grip (or at least one with a rail to mount my vertical grip) and try various lengths/ammo/positions/etc. over some period of time, I will need to do this experimentation on my own carbine. Since the odds of someone loaning or renting me their pre-ban for a few days or weeks is nil, I am resigned to the fact that any such experimentation will have to be done with my own post-ban... very possibly out of state if that's what it's going to take.

I sure wish that the People's Republic of Taxachusetts were capable of allowing a temporary period of time for a handicapped individual to custom fit a gun that would work for him (or her) without the threat of arrest. I've called many times about this but with no sympathy and zero cooperation.

CLMN

 

[Tim94gt]

The collapsible stock will have 6 different position. If you drill and tap each position for your pin, bring the gun to the range try out each position and decide which one you like.

I'm not a laywer but I believe the "pin" cannot be removed without the use of a tool, so if you are using an allen head screw(like the one in your bushmaster stock) you can have multiple pin points.

 

[CLMN]

The collapsible stock will have 6 different position. If you drill and tap each position for your pin, bring the gun to the range try out each position and decide which one you like.

I'm not a laywer but I believe the "pin" cannot be removed without the use of a tool, so if you are using an allen head screw(like the one in your bushmaster stock) you can have multiple pin points.

I don't believe that my "fake" collapsible stock has any positions pre-set or pre-drilled. To be honest with you, I'm not even 100% sure that it can be moved (shortened) once de-pinned. It is not like a 6 (or 4) position pre-ban style stock that has merely been neutered.

On the other hand, I believe you are correct in the sense that a new, pre-ban style stock can be neutered and become legal in MA. In fact, one exhibitor at the show essentially offered me that option. But my dilemma is still the same: I still have to tell him exactly how much to shorten it before he permanently alters and pins it in place (his words)... at which point it can then be legally installed on my carbine.

CLMN

 

[jdubois]

The collapsible stock will have 6 different position. If you drill and tap each position for your pin, bring the gun to the range try out each position and decide which one you like.

I'm not a laywer but I believe the "pin" cannot be removed without the use of a tool, so if you are using an allen head screw(like the one in your bushmaster stock) you can have multiple pin points.

This approach, imho, is not legal. Stocks should be permanently fixed. Temporarily pinning at the different positions will not work. In California they have decided that if the magazine needs a tool to remove, it is not "detachable". However there is absolutely no precedent to support a similar concept with stocks here in MA.

To the OP, you can certainly take your rifle to a "free" state and try a collapsible stock there before pinning it. If you've got any friends in NH, have a stock shipped to them, then go shooting and figure out what position you'd like and pin the stock before you bring it back to MA. Alternatively, you could find a friendly FFL who would be willing to go to the range with you and your gun before they pin it (FFL's are allowed to possess rifles in AWB configuration).

 

[Tim94gt]

This approach, imho, is not legal. Stocks should be permanently fixed. Temporarily pinning at the different positions will not work. In California they have decided that if the magazine needs a tool to remove, it is not "detachable". However there is absolutely no precedent to support a similar concept with stocks here in MA.

To the OP, you can certainly take your rifle to a "free" state and try a collapsible stock there before pinning it. If you've got any friends in NH, have a stock shipped to them, then go shooting and figure out what position you'd like and pin the stock before you bring it back to MA. Alternatively, you could find a friendly FFL who would be willing to go to the range with you and your gun before they pin it (FFL's are allowed to possess rifles in AWB configuration).

My mistake, A few people mentioned doing that in another section of the forum. Thank you for correcting me, I was going to do that to my own rifle.

 

[drgrant]

Funny thing is that I really liked the 'look' of the fake/MA-compliant (pinned) collapsible stock. It will be a disappointment for sure unless I can retain that look (or close)... although better to have something that fits me right than to just have a pretty collector in a box.

Sure the look is great but IMO pinned stocks are terrible. It's showing off
a feature that doesn't exist. A collapsible stock says "hey you can press
this to adjust me" and in MA most of the time they look the same but
the dialogue is something like this...

"You can press this to adjust me. "
(someone picks up the rifle)
"WRONG!" (in, a John Matrix sort of way) causing pain in your hand when the person attempts to adjust the stock and nothing moves.

A pinned stock is nothing but a tease.

-Mike

 

[CLMN]

To the OP, you can certainly take your rifle to a "free" state and try a collapsible stock there before pinning it. If you've got any friends in NH, have a stock shipped to them, then go shooting and figure out what position you'd like and pin the stock before you bring it back to MA. Alternatively, you could find a friendly FFL who would be willing to go to the range with you and your gun before they pin it (FFL's are allowed to possess rifles in AWB configuration).

Yes, it's beginning to look like that (out-of-state) approach makes the most sense. Probably makes sense to have a New Hampshire gunsmith do the work as well. Sad that it has to be that way, but this is Taxachusetts after all.

CLMN

 

[CLMN]

Sure the look is great but IMO pinned stocks are terrible. It's showing off a feature that doesn't exist. A collapsible stock says "hey you can press this to adjust me" and in MA most of the time they look the same but the dialogue is something like this...

"You can press this to adjust me. "
(someone picks up the rifle)
"WRONG!" (in, a John Matrix sort of way) causing pain in your hand when the person attempts to adjust the stock and nothing moves.

A pinned stock is nothing but a tease.

-Mike

I cannot dispute your logic Mike (or your 'screenplay')... but this is the People's Republic of Taxachusetts after all and this is what we are allowed to own. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot I can do about it. Lord knows I didn't make the rules... they are asinine!

If you have a better suggestion for a similar but slightly shorter stock (exact length still to be determined), I am all ears... but please let it be something reasonably consistent with the basic design of the gun and not something that screams "aftermarket" too loudly. I checked out a few alternatives at the Marlboro show and I wasn't all that impressed.

CLMN

 

[drgrant]

I cannot dispute your logic Mike (or your 'screenplay')... but this is the People's Republic of Taxachusetts after all and this is what we are allowed to own. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot I can do about it. Lord knows I didn't make the rules... they are asinine!

Well, we're also allowed to use all different kinds of fixed stocks.

I'd suggest either one of the ACE stocks, or the Sully....

http://prostores2.carrierzone.com/servlet/defensive-edgenet/-strse-83/Sully-Stock/Detail

I think Bushmaster also has a cheapo A2 style stubby stock if you don't
want to spend a lot of cash.

Any of these is less absurd than a collapsible that's pinned inoperable.

but please let it be something reasonably consistent with the basic design of the gun and not something that screams "aftermarket" too loudly.

Not sure what you mean by this. These days anything other than your standard A2 is "aftermarket" but that's not always a bad thing. Also bear in mind
the same like 10 or so companies make most of the generic AR parts. I'm guessing you want to avoid trashco...er... Tapco.

-Mike

 

[CLMN]

Any of these is less absurd than a collapsible that's pinned inoperable.

Ouch!!! Point taken.

Not sure what you mean by this. These days anything other than your standard A2 is "aftermarket" but that's not always a bad thing. Also bear in mind the same like 10 or so companies make most of the generic AR parts. I'm guessing you want to avoid trashco...er... Tapco.

-Mike

Okay... so I'll admit it. I probably didn't give the alternatives a fair shake. I'll take a much closer look in West Springfield. Maybe trying one or more fixed length stocks (close in length to where I think I need to be) might actually prove cheaper in the long run than having to leave the state to do my experimentation and have the mods done up in New Hampshire. But I gotta tell you that I am turned off by cheap, crappy imported parts. I didn't go this way to adorn my new Bushmaster in junk.

CLMN