What did you do in the reloading room recently?

gerrycaruso said:
Still messing with the .43 Spanish rolling block. Today I shot groups with paper patched Mauser and Spanish bullets and a coated plain base .45/70 bullet resized to .444. No clear cut winner yet. Norm Purcella's 6.5 cast bullets should be here tomorrow. I should know on Tuesday whether or not I'm giving up on cast bullets in the Swedish Mauser.
Click to expand...
I ordered my 6.5s from norm unsized and no gas checks . Orders a custom gas check seater for my lyman 450 .
I was getting sub 3 moa which I thought was good.
 
I just got back from the range. I was shooting cast out of the 6.5 Swedish Mauser. I guess I'm not giving up on cast bullets in the 6.5. Norm Purcella's 140 grain coated gc shot into 1 inch at 50 yards with 3 of the 5 touching. The other bullet wouldn't stay on the paper and the ones that did, hit the paper sideways. In fairness, maybe I was pushing them too fast. I'll try them with the Unique load that did so well with Norm's bullets
 
gerrycaruso said:
I just got back from the range. I was shooting cast out of the 6.5 Swedish Mauser. I guess I'm not giving up on cast bullets in the 6.5. Norm Purcella's 140 grain coated gc shot into 1 inch at 50 yards with 3 of the 5 touching. The other bullet wouldn't stay on the paper and the ones that did, hit the paper sideways. In fairness, maybe I was pushing them too fast. I'll try them with the Unique load that did so well with Norm's bullets
Click to expand...
I have never been disappointed using Unique with cast bullets.
 
gerrycaruso said:
I just got back from the range. I was shooting cast out of the 6.5 Swedish Mauser. I guess I'm not giving up on cast bullets in the 6.5. Norm Purcella's 140 grain coated gc shot into 1 inch at 50 yards with 3 of the 5 touching. The other bullet wouldn't stay on the paper and the ones that did, hit the paper sideways. In fairness, maybe I was pushing them too fast. I'll try them with the Unique load that did so well with Norm's bullets
Click to expand...
Eventually you can find something that works.
 
gerrycaruso said:
I tried the Swedish Mauser again and the results were the same. Norm's bullets shot into a very small group and the others were all over the paper. I'd like to try another cast bullet but can't find any.
Click to expand...
Remind me what the differences were in the bullets? Were they harder? I know that his are coated. Gas check versus plane base? Was one of them a bore ride?
 
Handloading seating depth ladder results. I'm sure some of you have already experienced this, but this represents an epiphany for me. I picked up a new precision rifle in .308 Winchester. Decided to go whole hog on developing loads specifically for this rifle. I have been limited to 100 yard range at my club, so wanted to develop the load with a flat-based bullet. Basically, cartridges are 2x fired Federal Gold Medal brass (completely worked up), CCI 200 primers, IMR 3031 powder, and 125 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets.

Worked up OCW ladders and found a stable velocity pateau at 43.5 grains (3005 fps, with SD of 8.1 for a set of 10 rounds). On paper, however, my groups were unaffected by velocity (typically 3/4 to 1 MOA for 5-round groups). So, decided to pursue a seating depth ladder. Loaded 24 rounds as 6 groups of 3 for the ladder. All with the 43.5 grain load. Determined length to lands using the Loctite method, and then set the ladder up starting at CBTO of 2.087" (0.095" to lands, or 95 thousandths jump). Each subsequent ladder step extended length by three thousandths. Fired the 6 ladder steps this AM, and HOLY C$@P, it seems that precision "nodes" are real!! See targets below (POI was below target for first group, so scope was adjusted before the second group was fired). All 3-round groups were "typical" until the group with 83 thousandths jump, and all three went through the same hole for a group of 0.024"!!! Three thousandths longer than that, and the group opened up again.

I'm loading 25 more at the 83 thousandths jump length to hopefully confirm results with several 5 round groups this weekend. I'm also loading several 3 round sets at 1 and 2 thousandths longer and shorter than the .083 jump to see how "forgiving" the node is.

Again, I'm sure some of you have experienced this yourselves, but this is the first time that the precision hand loading efforts have produced a significant effect on target.

Forgive my blathering, but this is nerd is pretty excited by this lesson!

3-4-22 .125gr jump ladder.jpg
 
RankAmateur said:
Handloading seating depth ladder results. I'm sure some of you have already experienced this, but this represents an epiphany for me. I picked up a new precision rifle in .308 Winchester. Decided to go whole hog on developing loads specifically for this rifle. I have been limited to 100 yard range at my club, so wanted to develop the load with a flat-based bullet. Basically, cartridges are 2x fired Federal Gold Medal brass (completely worked up), CCI 200 primers, IMR 3031 powder, and 125 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets.

Worked up OCW ladders and found a stable velocity pateau at 43.5 grains (3005 fps, with SD of 8.1 for a set of 10 rounds). On paper, however, my groups were unaffected by velocity (typically 3/4 to 1 MOA for 5-round groups). So, decided to pursue a seating depth ladder. Loaded 24 rounds as 6 groups of 3 for the ladder. All with the 43.5 grain load. Determined length to lands using the Loctite method, and then set the ladder up starting at CBTO of 2.087" (0.095" to lands, or 95 thousandths jump). Each subsequent ladder step extended length by three thousandths. Fired the 6 ladder steps this AM, and HOLY C$@P, it seems that precision "nodes" are real!! See targets below (POI was below target for first group, so scope was adjusted before the second group was fired). All 3-round groups were "typical" until the group with 83 thousandths jump, and all three went through the same hole for a group of 0.024"!!! Three thousandths longer than that, and the group opened up again.

I'm loading 25 more at the 83 thousandths jump length to hopefully confirm results with several 5 round groups this weekend. I'm also loading several 3 round sets at 1 and 2 thousandths longer and shorter than the .083 jump to see how "forgiving" the node is.

Again, I'm sure some of you have experienced this yourselves, but this is the first time that the precision hand loading efforts have produced a significant effect on target.

Forgive my blathering, but this is nerd is pretty excited by this lesson!

View attachment 585786
Click to expand...
Looks great!
 
RankAmateur said:
Handloading seating depth ladder results. I'm sure some of you have already experienced this, but this represents an epiphany for me. I picked up a new precision rifle in .308 Winchester. Decided to go whole hog on developing loads specifically for this rifle. I have been limited to 100 yard range at my club, so wanted to develop the load with a flat-based bullet. Basically, cartridges are 2x fired Federal Gold Medal brass (completely worked up), CCI 200 primers, IMR 3031 powder, and 125 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets.

Worked up OCW ladders and found a stable velocity pateau at 43.5 grains (3005 fps, with SD of 8.1 for a set of 10 rounds). On paper, however, my groups were unaffected by velocity (typically 3/4 to 1 MOA for 5-round groups). So, decided to pursue a seating depth ladder. Loaded 24 rounds as 6 groups of 3 for the ladder. All with the 43.5 grain load. Determined length to lands using the Loctite method, and then set the ladder up starting at CBTO of 2.087" (0.095" to lands, or 95 thousandths jump). Each subsequent ladder step extended length by three thousandths. Fired the 6 ladder steps this AM, and HOLY C$@P, it seems that precision "nodes" are real!! See targets below (POI was below target for first group, so scope was adjusted before the second group was fired). All 3-round groups were "typical" until the group with 83 thousandths jump, and all three went through the same hole for a group of 0.024"!!! Three thousandths longer than that, and the group opened up again.

I'm loading 25 more at the 83 thousandths jump length to hopefully confirm results with several 5 round groups this weekend. I'm also loading several 3 round sets at 1 and 2 thousandths longer and shorter than the .083 jump to see how "forgiving" the node is.

Again, I'm sure some of you have experienced this yourselves, but this is the first time that the precision hand loading efforts have produced a significant effect on target.

Forgive my blathering, but this is nerd is pretty excited by this lesson!

View attachment 585786
Click to expand...
Interesting results, all experiments I did were consistent with best results having jump around 50-65 thousands.
In all of gas rifles I could not get closer due to magazine size restrictions. Getting further out to 80 or so was getting significantly worse.
In bergara getting closer than 50 was getting worse, so I sit it at 2.817”. :)

The test with 83 - did you record the speed to see if it was consistent across all tests? Just looks a lot of deviation for less that 10 thousands diff.
 
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Check out some of Mark Gordons articles about jumping bullets a long ways. It's pretty eye opening and he's gotten pretty extensive testing to prove it. My only concern is if you only have a window of a cpl thousandths id be looking for another seating depth with a wider node. There are some long range guys that have been testing throating their chambers super long just to get these longer jumps and they are noting its greatly reducing throat erosion.

Another thing to note in regards to OCW tests as ive never been able to really decipher any major POI changes at 100 yards. Stretching it out to 200-300 will start to show POI changes a lot better but it can also lead to inaccurate data if ones not proficient at those ranges. If you look at the attached target very hard to see any noticeable POI change even with almost 200FPS change in speed.

I recently started workup on the BRA myself and started with a velocity test just to get some numbers as to what my barrel is capable of. Unfortunately I don't have a Labrador so all groups were shot with the magneto speed attached to barrel so not putting a lot of faith in the groups but it seems consistent so that's good. First group flyer was squeaky clean barrel and was also the super slow speed creating the large SD and ES.

I found two good nodes around 2850-2890 and another at 2925-2950. Ive loaded up a seating depth test in the middle of the lower node from .010" to .050" off the lands in .010" increments to see what it'll do. Although the higher node showed the best group Id rather run in the lower node and conserve the barrel.

I've loaded up a 5 shot string of each seating depth and unless I can get my hands on a Labrador to do testing i'm going to run it without the chronograph on barrel.

Lapua 6BR brass (Once fired to fireform)
Berger 106 hybrid
Varget
CCI 450s tempImageyjCMnw.png tempImageIC6qoH.png
 
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Mudflap621 said:
Check out some of Mark Gordons articles about jumping bullets a long ways. It's pretty eye opening and he's gotten pretty extensive testing to prove it. My only concern is if you only have a window of a cpl thousandths id be looking for another seating depth with a wider node. There are some long range guys that have been testing throating their chambers super long just to get these longer jumps and they are noting its greatly reducing throat erosion.

Another thing to note in regards to OCW tests as ive never been able to really decipher any major POI changes at 100 yards. Stretching it out to 200-300 will start to show POI changes a lot better but it can also lead to inaccurate data if ones not proficient at those ranges. If you look at the attached target very hard to see any noticeable POI change even with almost 200FPS change in speed.

I recently started workup on the BRA myself and started with a velocity test just to get some numbers as to what my barrel is capable of. Unfortunately I don't have a Labrador so all groups were shot with the magneto speed attached to barrel so not putting a lot of faith in the groups but it seems consistent so that's good. First group flyer was squeaky clean barrel and was also the super slow speed creating the large SD and ES.

I found two good nodes around 2850-2890 and another at 2925-2950. Ive loaded up a seating depth test in the middle of the lower node from .010" to .050" off the lands in .010" increments to see what it'll do. Although the higher node showed the best group Id rather run in the lower node and conserve the barrel.

I've loaded up a 5 shot string of each seating depth and unless I can get my hands on a Labrador to do testing i'm going to run it without the chronograph on barrel.

Lapua 6BR brass (Once fired to fireform)
Berger 106 hybrid
Varget
CCI 450sView attachment 585958View attachment 585959
Click to expand...
Yeah, anything attached to a barrel is not great. But should still be ok for a generic feel.
Don’t know why you have to have a $600 chrono, I have this one and it is working great:
ads.midwayusa.com

Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX Bluetooth Chronograph

The next generation of the ProChrono model based on a time proven design that has been measuring “almost anything that shoots” since 1985!...
ads.midwayusa.com ads.midwayusa.com

Amazon sells them cheaper also.
Best part about it is its app you have on a phone that speaks up the measured speed- very convenient at the bench.
 
paul73 said:
Yeah, anything attached to a barrel is not great. But should still be ok for a generic feel.
Don’t know why you have to have a $600 chrono, I have this one and it is working great:
ads.midwayusa.com

Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX Bluetooth Chronograph

The next generation of the ProChrono model based on a time proven design that has been measuring “almost anything that shoots” since 1985!...
ads.midwayusa.com ads.midwayusa.com

Amazon sells them cheaper also.
Best part about it is its app you have on a phone that speaks up the measured speed- very convenient at the bench.
Click to expand...
I don't have to have a 600 dollar chrono, I want one. The Labradar and magneto speed are the most consistent and accurate going and if we are splitting hairs mine as well use good testing equipment to split them.

I might try to rig up some type of adapter on my magneto so that I can attach it to my arca rail and have it off the barrel. There are a few companies making the brackets but I dunno if I wanna buy retail to just find out Im gonna end up with the Labradar down the road.
 
paul73 said:
Interesting results, all experiments I did were consistent with best results having jump around 50-65 thousands.
In all of gas rifles I could not get closer due to magazine size restrictions. Getting further out to 80 or so was getting significantly worse.
In bergara getting closer than 50 was getting worse, so I sit it at 2.817”. :)

The test with 83 - did you record the speed to see if it was consistent across all tests? Just looks a lot of deviation for less that 10 thousands diff.
Click to expand...
Hi. Yes, the ladder was shot with the Magnetospeed attached. Average was 3005 fps with SD of 8.1 fps. Across all 24 rounds, average was 3007 with SD of 14.3.
 
Mudflap621 said:
Check out some of Mark Gordons articles about jumping bullets a long ways. It's pretty eye opening and he's gotten pretty extensive testing to prove it. My only concern is if you only have a window of a cpl thousandths id be looking for another seating depth with a wider node. There are some long range guys that have been testing throating their chambers super long just to get these longer jumps and they are noting its greatly reducing throat erosion.

Another thing to note in regards to OCW tests as ive never been able to really decipher any major POI changes at 100 yards. Stretching it out to 200-300 will start to show POI changes a lot better but it can also lead to inaccurate data if ones not proficient at those ranges. If you look at the attached target very hard to see any noticeable POI change even with almost 200FPS change in speed.
Click to expand...
Hi @Mudflap621,

I've read Mark's articles, and took away the impression that he was not striving for ultimate precision, but rather a highly "forgiving" node/nodes so optimize a combination of precision (group size), minimize vertical offset as the throat erodes, and identify wide nodes. My intent is precision (at this point) and am willing to revise seating depth every hundred rounds as needed. I'm also somewhat limited by magazine length, but can single load too, so I won't entirely focus on COAL shorter than mag length.

You are correct about the narrowness of the node I found. Confirmed it today with a ladder of lengths separated by single thousandths. Agree that this is just too finicky to be practical - but it was my first seating depth node ever (grin). I will be pursuing both longer and shorter lengths to detect other more forgiving nodes as I continue development.

Also agree on the limitations of 100 yd range data. Unfortunately, it's all I have at the moment. To that point, I've seen both good precision (group sizes) with mediocre velocity consistency (wider SDs), and mediocre precision with very tight velocity SDs at 100 yds. I'm sure the velocity consistency becomes ever more relevant to vertical dispersion as the range increases.

Thanks for your response and the posted data! Really good post!
 
Last edited:
RankAmateur said:
Hi @Mudflap621,

I've read Mark's articles, and took away the impression that he was not striving for ultimate precision, but rather a highly "forgiving" node/nodes so optimize a combination of precision (group size), minimize vertical offset as the throat erodes, and identify wide nodes. My intent is precision (at this point) and am willing to revise seating depth every hundred rounds as needed. I'm also somewhat limited by magazine length, but can single load too, so I won't entirely focus on COAL shorter than mag length.

You are correct about the narrowness of the node I found. Confirmed it today with a ladder of lengths separated by single thousandths. Agree that this is just too finicky to be practical - but it was my first seating depth node ever (grin). I will be pursuing both longer and shorter lengths to detect other more forgiving nodes as I continue development.

Also agree on the limitations of 100 yd range data. Unfortunately, it's all I have at the moment. To that point, I've seen both good precision (group sizes) with mediocre velocity consistency (wider SDs), and mediocre precision with very tight velocity SDs at 100 yds. I'm sure the velocity consistency becomes every more relevant to vertical dispersion as the range increases.

Thanks for your response and the posted data! Really good post!
Click to expand...
Sounds like your on the right track!

If you have posted already I apologize but what load did you focus on for this seating depth test the better group or better SD?
 
Mudflap621 said:
Sounds like your on the right track!

If you have posted already I apologize but what load did you focus on for this seating depth test the better group or better SD?
Click to expand...
Both. As noted, I haven't seen remarkable changes in target precision due to velocity changes, so I first did OCW to find a stable plateau of velocity with a narrow SD. Once that was identified, I progressed to the seating depth testing at that charge with the intention of finding precision (target) nodes based on group size.
 
RankAmateur said:
Hi @Mudflap621,

I've read Mark's articles, and took away the impression that he was not striving for ultimate precision, but rather a highly "forgiving" node/nodes so optimize a combination of precision (group size), minimize vertical offset as the throat erodes, and identify wide nodes. My intent is precision (at this point) and am willing to revise seating depth every hundred rounds as needed. I'm also somewhat limited by magazine length, but can single load too, so I won't entirely focus on COAL shorter than mag length.

You are correct about the narrowness of the node I found. Confirmed it today with a ladder of lengths separated by single thousandths. Agree that this is just too finicky to be practical - but it was my first seating depth node ever (grin). I will be pursuing both longer and shorter lengths to detect other more forgiving nodes as I continue development.

Also agree on the limitations of 100 yd range data. Unfortunately, it's all I have at the moment. To that point, I've seen both good precision (group sizes) with mediocre velocity consistency (wider SDs), and mediocre precision with very tight velocity SDs at 100 yds. I'm sure the velocity consistency becomes every more relevant to vertical dispersion as the range increases.

Thanks for your response and the posted data! Really good post!
Click to expand...
I also did not want to get overwhelmed with too much on seating depth detail as barrel will deteriorate and lands will move. As soon as I see a 1/4moa consistent holes with a .2 grain load deviation- it’s a winner.

The only challenge so far of all my rifles is a that 18” Wilson .308 barrel that does not seem to have a clear nice spot. Dunno how much effort I want to keep putting into that anyway anymore, as I never thought of it other than a shtf battle weapon anyway.
Otherwise I would buy an another LaRue upper in .308.
 
paul73 said:
I also did not want to get overwhelmed with too much on seating depth detail as barrel will deteriorate and lands will move. As soon as I see a 1/4moa consistent holes with a .2 grain load deviation- it’s a winner.

The only challenge so far of all my rifles is a that 18” Wilson .308 barrel that does not seem to have a clear nice spot. Dunno how much effort I want to keep putting into that anyway anymore, as I never thought of it other than a shtf battle weapon anyway.
Otherwise I would buy an another LaRue upper in .308.
Click to expand...
Just curious how much erosion have you seen in your 308 barrel? I understand some hotrod cartridges it comes with the territory but don't hear much about it in things like the 308 or 223 unless guys are really pushing the limit.
 
Mudflap621 said:
Just curious how much erosion have you seen in your 308 barrel? I understand some hotrod cartridges it comes with the territory but don't hear much about it in things like the 308 or 223 unless guys are really pushing the limit.
Click to expand...
I did not shoot that .308 barrel nowhere close enough to cause any erosion, yet , it is still under 1000 count.
Dunno if I want to continue with .308, there is still one more unassigned at10 lower in the safe, but I am still debating what to use it with.
The .308 I talked about is still should be adequate for hunting or any other shooting that does not need better than 2moa accuracy.
 
Tallahassee said:
Dillon will let you backorder some, not sure the timeline though.
Click to expand...
Dillon told me 14-24 months on carbide dies, depending on which die. I'm waiting on some pistol dies that were ordered last March. Mine are about 14-16 months (44 mag, 380 acp, & 40/10mm). I rec'd the 9mm dies after about 10-11 months. At least I paid $79 rather than $125 a set!
 
RankAmateur said:
Both. As noted, I haven't seen remarkable changes in target precision due to velocity changes, so I first did OCW to find a stable plateau of velocity with a narrow SD. Once that was identified, I progressed to the seating depth testing at that charge with the intention of finding precision (target) nodes based on group size.
Click to expand...
Figured id tag you in on this as I just got finished doing a seating depth test for the BRA. I went to the middle of the lower velocity node and loaded up five 5-round groups .010", .020", .030", .040", and .050" off the lands. There looks to be at a pretty wide window between at least .030"-.040" off the lands that shoots very well. I could probably beak this down a little further but with a match scheduled for this weekend im going to go right in the middle at .035" off and run it for now. Ill load up enough for the match as well as 25-30 ill use this week to get some good velocity numbers so I can start gathering some dope. tempImagekYEXk8.png
 

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