Walther P99 Trigger Issue

[Len-2A Training]

I'm hoping that Greg Derr will have a good answer on this one!

Walther P99 trigger seems to be shaped in a way that allows the shooting finger to slip further into the trigger guard on recoil. This does NOT help accuracy in follow-up shots! [Yesterday I noticed that I was a lot more repeatable and accurate with my S&W 1911 .45 than with the P99 .40 and believe that this was a large contributor to the difference.]

To me at least it appears that the trigger is rounded, leaving the shooter with essentially a slippery surface (in comparison to other guns). [Words may not be accurate but it's difficult to describe something in words where a drawing is really needed.]

I do not have this happen with any other gun that I use and believe that most of the other guns either have flat or cupped trigger and/or are grooved to prevent this.

Has anyone else observed this with the Walther P99 and/or is there a good way to lessen this problem? [The trigger is plastic.]

I plan on calling S&W Tech Supt this week and talking with them about it. Perhaps they have re-designed the trigger? I'm guessing that stippling, hockey tape or filing it may be solutions.

 

[dreppucci007]

You're not the only one Len...I always just kind of assumed it was in my head. That happens with my P99, and it is a plastic rounded trigger. How old is yours?...I got mine back in 2002. Please post what you find from S&W. Thanks in advance

 

[tele_mark]

I'm just a newbie, but I shot my P99 .40 yesterday, along with some 1911's, a Glock 9mm and a Sig. The 1911's were almost rediculously easy to shoot well in comparison. I thinks someone on here mentioned that the sights on the Walther are meant as close quarters sights, and aren't easy to use even past 15 yards without lots of skill.

 

[USMA-82]

That's my one and only gripe about the P99 - trigger finger takes a beating during extended range time. Something about dragging it along the trigger guard just tends to beat the heck out of it.

I still like the long heavy pull - rules out a startle shot - and continue to carry it almost daily.

If there's a simple solution to this trigger situation, I'm all ears!

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I still like the long heavy pull - rules out a startle shot - and continue to carry it almost daily.

RULES OUT A "STARTLE" SHOT? DON'T YOU BET ON IT!

From John Farnam's site: (Bold Emphasis Added By Me)

John Farnam's Quips - 29 Sept 2000

From a friend on the East Coast:

"The suspect was proned out on the ground during the arrest process. The officer had a SIG P229 .40 pistol in one hand (pistol in double-action mode, not cocked), with his finger on the trigger, a radio in his other hand, and his foot on the suspect's back. At some point, the suspect moved, and the officer discharged his pistol, according to the officer, unintentionally. Apparently, it takes a long time for the teaching on (1) involuntary muscular contraction ("IMC") causing accidental discharge, (2) the proper way to cover a suspect at gunpoint, and (3) better arrest procedures, to reach the officers on the street in some parts of the country.

Clearly, IMC causing unintentional shots is not limited to single-action
weapons. There are other cases of it occurring with uncocked SIG pistols (one in Arizona comes to mind), double-action Berettas (Las Vegas Metro PD), double-action revolvers (instances too numerous to mention), Glocks of all trigger pull weights, H&K P7M8 pistols, Remington and S&W (and probably all other) pump shotguns, Ruger Minil-14's, submachine guns, etc., etc.

The rigors and realities of covering suspects demand that the finger be kept outside the trigger guard unless and until you have actually decided to fire. (Universal Cover Mode: High Ready position with finger outside the trigger guard.)

This is the same as Rule 3 of the Four Cardinal Rules of Firearms Safety:
3. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are on target and have decided to fire.

Some modify the above rule to read "have actually decided to fire," but it
amounts to the same thing. Phoenix PD and some others state and use the rule as "Keep your finger outside the trigger guard and straight along the frame ...," thus not only telling the shooter what he should not do, but telling him what he should do as well.

In case anyone mistakenly believes that keeping the trigger warm with their finger gives them some kind of tactical advantage in the event the suspect decides to resist, they need to see an "action beats reaction" demonstration to disabuse them of their fantasy. Cover, distance, positioning (both of suspect and officer), lighting, movement, backup, body armor, control tactics, alertness, and mindset can all provide very significant advantages to the officer covering a suspect at gunpoint. But keeping one's finger on the trigger does virtually nothing to improve officer safety, and is simply a disaster primed to occur.

Anyone wanting a detailed discussion of involuntary muscular contraction should get the IALEFI publication, Standards & Practices Guide for Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI, Gilford, NH. 1995), and start by looking on pages 269-272 under the heading, "involuntary muscular contraction" and related entries cited therein. This entry provides numerous other reference sources for anyone interested. IALEFI's phone number is 603-524-8787. Every instructor of defensive firearms skills should be a member of IALEFI.

Maybe this message will help even one reader avoid a tragedy in which someone else's life and his own are both destroyed with a single twitch of the finger.

In case some readers don't know it, otherwise sterling police officers and
homeowners can get convicted of manslaughter (or murder) for this stuff, or can lose their homes, businesses and life savings in civil suits. Let's keep getting the word out! Keep your finger the hell off the trigger until you have actually decided to fire - then put your finger there, and don't miss!"

/John

Regards
John

 

[mark056]

I think that John Farum is correct, however, I would not rule out Mas Ayoob's reasoning regarding having a long first shot. Under some conditions it might minimize the potential of an AD.

Of course, it all goes back to training and keeping one's finger off the trigger.

Mark

 

[ajw45]

I found this to be true for me as well and I simply shot the Walther differently than a 1911, more like a glock with the trigger almost underneath the first joint of my finger. I think that the length of pull on the walther is relatively short once you get the trigger back to the break in SA mode especially considering, unlike a 1911, the gun has to be designed such the the shooters finger can reach the trigger even in the fully extended trigger forward position. All that said, I like the short and very positive reset of the walther and my rate of accurate fire is equal to that of the 1911.

 

[USMA-82]

Yup, finger off the trigger is the way to go. I know Farnum stresses that, having taken his Advanced Pistol Course several years ago. And I know that several studies have shown the time it takes to move the trigger finger from the index point on the frame to the trigger is minimal, and does not contribute significantly to reaction speed. Absolutely makes sense.

That being said... I've always felt there might be a grey area between black (put finger on trigger and squeeze), and white (finger indexed on frame). It might be that split second when the threat changes based on your reaction to the threat - i.e., when the attacker sees you mean business, he breaks off the attack and decides to go elsewhere. Of course, at that point, the defender could pull the finger off the trigger while scanning for other threats.

I know that everything we do in training is focused on eliminating that hesitation - that once we are in immediate danger of grevious bodily harm or death from someone with the means and ability, we are to react swiftly to stop the threat. Everything we do, from Tueller drills to reloading drills stresses speed and efficiency of motion. But I wonder, were I ever in this life or death situation (God forbid!), if there might be a second or two where hesitation might be prudent.

And a dual-action, long-pull trigger would give me the ability to "abort" a decision at the last second - or prevent an involuntary "startle" shot - after I made the move to the trigger.

I've got no "real-life" experience to base this on - it's just something I've thought about for a while. My 2 cents....