Both 9 mm. Which one do you think is the better gun for self defense? Both are in similar shape.
Dave
Dave
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
-
Be sure to enter the NES/MFS May Giveaway ***Canik METE SFX***
Walther P1 or PP....
- Thread starter nhclubowner
- Start date
If you get close to both pistols, I think you'll find that the P1 (a P38 design with an alloy frame) is far bulkier than a PP or PPK. On the other hand, I am not aware that the PP or PPK is chambered for 9 mm, which is tad powerful for a blowback pistol, and many folks regard the .380 ACP (a/k/a 9 mm Kurz, not to be confused with 9 mm Luger or Parabellum) a marginal self-defense cartridge.
Yes the P1 came after the P38 and is alloy. They look the same but from a collectors view the P1 is less desirable.
Dave
Most people would regard the .32 ACP to be even less worthy a defense cartridge than the .380, which a lot of folks regard as inadequate itself. And you did start out your query with "gun for self defense."
Now these opinions have to be put in context. A .32 auto is potentially fatal, and a lot of folks have been killed with them. So there is no bright line between "acceptable" defense rounds and "unacceptable" ones; the difference, rather, is the extent to which the cartridge's external and terminal ballistics are such that they can compensate for a margin of error with respect to shot placement. On this scale, the .32 is marginal: a 71 gr. FMJ at about 900 fps, yielding about 125 ft-lbs. at the muzzle. I'm not aware of any factory JHPs for .32 Auto, nor at 900 fps would they be likely to enhance terminal ballistic performance, and the PP/PPK is not renown for handling anything other than FMJs with reliability.
There are two other attributes of a PP/PPK that bear on its use as a concealed defensive weapon. On the one hand, it is small and flat and, therefore, more concealable than many pistols. On the other hand, like most blowbacks, the recoil spring is quite stiff, which makes for greater effort (and greater pinch on the serrations) to rack the slide, which could be crucial if you have a stovepipe.
So it comes down to this: if your situation is such that you need an especially concealable pistol -- which the PP/PPK surely is -- or you can carry none, then carry a PP/PPK. (For instance, the PP is the only pistol I've ever found that can be practically concealed under a tuxedo cummerbund.) But if you have other choices, take a hard look at them.
For my money, something like a 9 mm SIG P239 is a far better bet.
Now these opinions have to be put in context. A .32 auto is potentially fatal, and a lot of folks have been killed with them. So there is no bright line between "acceptable" defense rounds and "unacceptable" ones; the difference, rather, is the extent to which the cartridge's external and terminal ballistics are such that they can compensate for a margin of error with respect to shot placement. On this scale, the .32 is marginal: a 71 gr. FMJ at about 900 fps, yielding about 125 ft-lbs. at the muzzle. I'm not aware of any factory JHPs for .32 Auto, nor at 900 fps would they be likely to enhance terminal ballistic performance, and the PP/PPK is not renown for handling anything other than FMJs with reliability.
There are two other attributes of a PP/PPK that bear on its use as a concealed defensive weapon. On the one hand, it is small and flat and, therefore, more concealable than many pistols. On the other hand, like most blowbacks, the recoil spring is quite stiff, which makes for greater effort (and greater pinch on the serrations) to rack the slide, which could be crucial if you have a stovepipe.
So it comes down to this: if your situation is such that you need an especially concealable pistol -- which the PP/PPK surely is -- or you can carry none, then carry a PP/PPK. (For instance, the PP is the only pistol I've ever found that can be practically concealed under a tuxedo cummerbund.) But if you have other choices, take a hard look at them.
For my money, something like a 9 mm SIG P239 is a far better bet.
As a class, locked breach autoloaders (examples: 1911-style Government Models, P35 Browning, P220-P239 SIGs) have lighter recoil springs, because the recoil spring has no function in retarding breach opening long enough to allow chamber pressure to fall to a safe level. As for whether striker-fired vs. internal or external hammer pistols have a lighter rack, I suspect there is no generality (but rather this would vary from model to model).
J
Jose
If you are going to carry a Walther, carry a P99.
This coming from a P1 owner.
This coming from a P1 owner.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Most PPK owners I know don't have many problems with
theirs- what a lot of people don't get about the gun though, is
that it is very ammo finicky, especially with JHPs. A lot of
folks go "my gun is broken" when the reality is it might only
feed 50% of the JHPs on the market... that's just the way the
thing is.
There WAS a period where S+W was turning out some crap
PPK/S's.... I remember for a window of like a year where stores
like FS basically stopped actively stocking the things... Maybe it
was 04 or 05, I forget.
In .380 ACP there are considerable arguments that ball ammo is
better anyways... as the JHPs in that caliber really don't do what
they're supposed to do because they're not going fast enough.
As a "type" The Sig P232 is probably the best in that class,
but the gun is stupidly large and heavy for being a .380 ACP.
-Mike
Since the choice is either a P1 (in 9mm) or a PP (in .32 ACP) you've got to go with the P1 (even though it's huge and has a really crappy DA trigger).
The .32 ACP is a woefully underpowered self defense cartridge. The .32 ACP will kill someone - eventually. Assuming they were a threat to your life, they'd probably be able to kill you before they bled out. A head shot is a possibility, but there was a story posted here a while back about a Brazilian guy that shot his wife 5 times in the head with a .32 ACP and she lived because none of the bullets penetrated her skull.
To stop a threat, you need "knockdown" power. Muzzle energy alone isn't enough to predict knockdown power; bullet profile and cross sectional density play a role as well.
I made a semi ham-fisted attempt at a "knockdown calculator" for non-expanding handgun bullets that uses muzzle energy, cross-sectional density, and bullet profile to come up with a number.
You can try it HERE.
The formula spits out a "knockdown coefficient" that's normalized so that a standard NATO M882 9mm Ball round equals 100%. According to my calculations, a 71gr .32 ACP FMJ bullet at 900 fps is only 25% as effective.
If you decide that you want to try JHP ammo for the .32 ACP, keep in mind that most JHP cartridges have a shorter OAL than ball ammo and with the semi-rimmed .32 ACP you'll have to worry about rim lock. It really is a craptastic SD round.
With all of that said, I wouldn't select either for self defense. If you like 'old-school' guns, why not a nice .357 revolver?
The .32 ACP is a woefully underpowered self defense cartridge. The .32 ACP will kill someone - eventually. Assuming they were a threat to your life, they'd probably be able to kill you before they bled out. A head shot is a possibility, but there was a story posted here a while back about a Brazilian guy that shot his wife 5 times in the head with a .32 ACP and she lived because none of the bullets penetrated her skull.
To stop a threat, you need "knockdown" power. Muzzle energy alone isn't enough to predict knockdown power; bullet profile and cross sectional density play a role as well.
I made a semi ham-fisted attempt at a "knockdown calculator" for non-expanding handgun bullets that uses muzzle energy, cross-sectional density, and bullet profile to come up with a number.
You can try it HERE.
The formula spits out a "knockdown coefficient" that's normalized so that a standard NATO M882 9mm Ball round equals 100%. According to my calculations, a 71gr .32 ACP FMJ bullet at 900 fps is only 25% as effective.
If you decide that you want to try JHP ammo for the .32 ACP, keep in mind that most JHP cartridges have a shorter OAL than ball ammo and with the semi-rimmed .32 ACP you'll have to worry about rim lock. It really is a craptastic SD round.
With all of that said, I wouldn't select either for self defense. If you like 'old-school' guns, why not a nice .357 revolver?
J
Jose
I bought my P1 just because it looks cool and would be a fun range toy.
It's DA pull sucks ass. It is big and wide. It holds only 8+1 rounds. However, its sights are pretty good.
I'm better armed with S&W Model 65 and six 357 Magnum rounds in the gun and six more in a speedloader.
It's DA pull sucks ass. It is big and wide. It holds only 8+1 rounds. However, its sights are pretty good.
I'm better armed with S&W Model 65 and six 357 Magnum rounds in the gun and six more in a speedloader.
