Utah right to bear arms enforced in class

[dcmdon]

Rob, leave it to you to bring up something common sensical and obvious that none of us have thought of. Thanks.

 

[GSG]

The university police chief has legit concerns on training and identification of who is the bad guy with the gun. I am curious what you Utah CCW instructor and holders think?

I don't have a Utah LTC, but I do have reciprocity there.

I'm 100% in support of legal carry in schools, especially massive college campuses that are essentially small cities with a ton of access points. I think that some of the chief's comments are bedwetting foolishness, but there are in fact some legitimate concerns about students carrying there. Nothing that can't be overcome, however.

Also, expect the school to change their written policy on weapons to bar the legal ones as well now.

As far as concerns about other people making mistakes in target identification, NYPD studies have shown that police are several times more likely to shoot the wrong people than you and I are.

Are those studies online? And if so, do you have links? I'd be interested in reading those.

The only "legit" concern they have is whether there are enough armed and capable students and staff around to stop (or better yet, deter) a determined mass-shooter...

There's others. Retraining the mindset of the cops would be a big one, the dispatchers too, so when they get an MWAG call they try to get info to see if it's someone who's shirt accidentally rode up or someone going on a rampage. Part of that re-training will have to include an understanding that they might get even more conflicting info than usual. They'll field hundreds of 911 calls for the gunman in Building A, but they'll also likely be getting calls reporting the description and activities of other "gunmen," meaning legally armed students and staff. It will mean resources being split up to handle multiple threats, and other similar logistical problems. They'll also be dealing with guns on a more regular basis, in car accidents, medical calls, stolen preperty reports, AD's/ND's, etc.

The people who choose to be lawfully armed will also need some training of sorts. Yeah I know the idea of that pisses off the libertarian elite on NES, but the fact of the matter is that some of the LTC holders who walk among us are mall ninjas who think their gun is the magic wand to solve all problems. I'm talking about the guys who can't be bothered to waddle on a treadmill for a few minutes a day, so every thrown punch is "disparity of force." People will also need a PSA of sorts to remind them that the right to carry doesn't mean that common sense doesn't apply, including the perspective of LE when dealing with them and vice versa. They'd also need to educate students that carry is legal there, so don't call 911 because the guy taking notes next to you is printing.

We're making great strides to seeing a broader recognition of carry rights, states making LTC's optional as concealed carry is de-regulated, places off limits to carry being made legal, etc. The change is good, but it means that people will need to learn how to walk again in a sense. It means people will have to take their heads out of the sand and consider how to actually address problems like retarded behavior with guns leading to LE response or an ND with something more than a paragraph in a law book. It also means people will have to get used to being around guns more often, so that 911 is called for dangerous behavior and situations, not passive carriage of a common tool.

I'm not saying it can't be done or that guns should be banned at schools, but that we all need to take an honest look at everyone's behavior to see where changes can be made that will benefit both the armed citizens and the cops entrusted with protecting the public.

I don't agree with his broad statement of officer have constant training with firearms. Maybe in some PDs but not all.

A campus PD at a school of that size in today's world likely has a lot more regular training for active shooters. They also have all summer long to practice in the empty buildings and dorms, which means they can train in the exact environment that they'd be responding to an active shooter in. They have a huge advantage over other PD's in this regard.

Maybe if the officers could be trained not to automatically open fire on anybody with a gun until they've determined what's going on, but that would require some real training.

What do you think would happen in a typical active shooter incident anyways with the campus PD.... my money is "Secure the perimeter and wait for reinforcements" . This happened at Columbine, and also happened at VT. All the guys with the guns just waited outside until long after the gunfire stopped. Nobody charged into the building to see what was going on. The risk of them shooting a good guy was essentially ZERO.

Not anymore. There's a reason every tacticool manufacturer sells active shooter bags now.

The mistaken identity on the part of the PD is a potential problem BUT these types of encounters happen so quickly that its not likely to matter much.

Actual active shooter incidents don't happen that much, but they'll still be getting called to robberies, rapes, assaults and other incidents where guns would presumably be used by good guys as well.

The advice given was that if you are CCW'ing during an active shooter situation and you have a gun drawn, you may very well be shot by police if you have a gun in your hand.

Your logic is correct, and also a potential lightning rod for angry posts in response.

how frequent does that happen? I think I stand a better chance of getting shot during a no knock warrant than I do by having the police come upon and active shooter scenario where both myself and the gunman are still alive

If you don't sell drugs but do carry a gun I'd say you've got the odds backwards.

The same argument could be made to explain why out of uniform off duty officers should not be allowed to carry. It would be a good start for the chief to order all of his officers to be unarmed whenever off duty and out of uniform so that their safety may be enhanced by removing the chance a police officer will mistake them for a criminal in a shooting situation.

That's why so many departments have specific restrictions on off duty carry, including lists of approved holsters, how badge or creds should be displayed, behavior when contacting on duty LE, what incidents they're allowed to intervene in, and other stuff. There's also departments that make general hints or outright prohibitions on off duty carry.

 

[KMaurer]

Also, expect the school to change their written policy on weapons to bar the legal ones as well now.

Fortunately, this isn't going to happen. The administration tried to implement those sorts of policies for students and faculty back when Utah adopted their current CCW laws. The state supreme court slapped them down (twice, IIRC) as being in violation of the rather broadly written law that prevents any state agency or local jurisdiction from adopting any rule or policies that conflict in any way with the state CCW law.

Ken

 

[cekim]

The people who choose to be lawfully armed will also need some training of sorts. Yeah I know the idea of that pisses off the libertarian elite on NES, but the fact of the matter is that some of the LTC holders who walk among us are mall ninjas who think their gun is the magic wand to solve all problems.

I think it is more important to remove the incentive of "gun free zones" as a matter of deterrent...

I have no illusions that merely carrying the gun makes you superman. I always advocate people take the time to train themselves, though I will not ever say that training should be required by a government agency of CCW'ers.

It's possible that schools would still be considered a soft target. Unfortunately, the only thing that would be sure to change that perception would be an incident where a school shooter was dropped by a civilian early in their rampage. Now, however, this is a virtual impossibility. First step is to make that possible...

BTW, I think this needs to be raised to a higher level of public discourse in response to the shifting of tactics of global terrorism. Our best defense is to go on the offensive and encourage training and armament of civilians so that terrorists will look elsewhere for soft-targets.

We need to make the "blade of grass" sentiment a reality if we want to minimize the effectiveness of terrorism in America in the years to come. Surely, the determined will not be stopped by "perception," but their plans will have to be more elaborate and likely to trigger attention if there are no "soft targets."

 

[GSG]

Fortunately, this isn't going to happen. The administration tried to implement those sorts of policies for students and faculty back when Utah adopted their current CCW laws. The state supreme court slapped them down (twice, IIRC) as being in violation of the rather broadly written law that prevents any state agency or local jurisdiction from adopting any rule or policies that conflict in any way with the state CCW law.

Ken

Awesome news then.

I have no illusions that merely carrying the gun makes you superman. I always advocate people take the time to train themselves, though I will not ever say that training should be required by a government agency of CCW'ers.

We're in total agreement here. When I say training I don't mean a special LTC course in order to get a "school carry" endorsement on your license or something, I mean the general idea that we'll promote educating people about guns, and specifically what everyone involved should expect in a US college today. It's a very sensitive topic to many people, so there needs to be some kind of common understanding.

It's possible that schools would still be considered a soft target. Unfortunately, the only thing that would be sure to change that perception would be an incident where a school shooter was dropped by a civilian early in their rampage. Now, however, this is a virtual impossibility. First step is to make that possible...

Also agreed. Having a nation armed to the teeth hasn't prevented regular terrorist attacks on the streets of Israel, it's just increased the chances of the good guys surviving the inevitable.