US Army going with hollowpoints?

[je25ff]

They should be going with something in the .3xx nevermind hollowpoints.

 

[righteousbarbarian]

The best way to make war more humane is aim first for those among your enemy with the highest rank, which is entirely opposite European standards for gentlemanly warfare.

Yes, and I suspect it stems from the feudalistic notion that the lives of landowners, people with prominent family names and more formal education are inherently more valuable than those of the poor, uneducated peasants. Commoners are just pawns to be used to achieve their goals, but you win the game of chess when you capture the king.

 

[Dadstoys]

Well it makes a handy bacon grease container.
Just saying.

 

[cekim]

Yes, and I suspect it stems from the feudalistic notion that the lives of landowners, people with prominent family names and more formal education are inherently more valuable than those of the poor, uneducated peasants. Commoners are just pawns to be used to achieve their goals, but you win the game of chess when you capture the king.

Their logic, as stated, was without "adults" on the battlefield, the rabble would tear each other apart in descend into barbarism. Which sounds almost plausible until your remember BULL!@#$ and yes, as you said, their belief in the inherent superiority by breeding of the ruling class.

AKA: the same elitist BS espoused by our politicians these days.

 

[Christian]

Poor Mongo

Yes, and I suspect it stems from the feudalistic notion that the lives of landowners, people with prominent family names and more formal education are inherently more valuable than those of the poor, uneducated peasants. Commoners are just pawns to be used to achieve their goals, but you win the game of chess when you capture the king.

 

[Bob P]

Hague also prohibited poison gas shells. That worked really well.

 

[Tracer1951]

Army going to them? The Marines already beat them

But here is the actual info....

April 16, 2015: The U.S. Marine Corps is going to switch to hollow point rifle and pistol ammunition.

Actually SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the Marines have been using hollow tip bullets for over a decade, mostly in Afghanistan and, for SOCOM, worldwide.

This use of hollow point, rather than full metal jacket ammo, began with pistols. SOCOM experimented and found that a full-metal jacket 9mm round has a one-shot stop rate (OSSR) of 70 percent, while the best 115-grain 9mm hollow point has a one-shot stop rate of 91 percent.

OSSR is largely just a way to measure the relative stopping power of different (in terms of caliber, design and weight) bullets and forcing the target to drop because of death or incapacitation. Much depends on where you shoot someone and SOCOM found that the highest OSSR was achieved with a .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol firing hollow point bullets. That gives you something like .99 OSSR and the OSSR stays high no matter where you hit someone. Basic OSSR is calculated assuming a hit in the center of mass. It was long known that hollow point does more damage but lots of battlefield experience since September 11, 2001 made it clear that hollow point ammo was a key tool in limiting the effectiveness of Islamic terrorists.
There is a popular and long-standing myth that hollow point bullets (that expand on hitting and create larger and more damaging wounds) are illegal according to the Geneva Convention. That treaty does not mention bullets.

The later 1899 Hague Convention does and it prohibits some types of hollow point bullets.

The U.S. never signed the Hague Convention and was never bound by it.

But in deference to allies who did sign American forces have rarely used hollow point bullets.

One frequent exception was for certain types of commando operations, like hostage rescue. No allies ever complained about this.

Shortly after 2001 SOCOM and the marines, responding to complaints from troops that the standard 5.56 and 9mm full metal jacket bullets were not doing enough damage to stop fanatical Taliban fighters, began issuing hollow point bullets and troops were satisfied with the improved stopping power.

As a result the Marines are going to switch over to the MK318 hollow point (or “open tip”) round for its assault rifles and machine-guns. T

he existing M855 full metal jacket rounds will be used up in training exercises. SOCOM has also switched to hollow point for pistols (9mm and 11.4mm) and rifles. The army is watching all this carefully.

 

[Arto]

what about Failure-to-feed jams vs. the nice round-nosed punkin' balls?

 

[frenchman]

hollow points would be a violation of geneva convention

Den Haag convention. Geneva is about POVs.

 

[frenchman]

Army going to them? The Marines already beat them

But here is the actual info....

April 16, 2015: The U.S. Marine Corps is going to switch to hollow point rifle and pistol ammunition.

Actually SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the Marines have been using hollow tip bullets for over a decade, mostly in Afghanistan and, for SOCOM, worldwide.

This use of hollow point, rather than full metal jacket ammo, began with pistols. SOCOM experimented and found that a full-metal jacket 9mm round has a one-shot stop rate (OSSR) of 70 percent, while the best 115-grain 9mm hollow point has a one-shot stop rate of 91 percent.

OSSR is largely just a way to measure the relative stopping power of different (in terms of caliber, design and weight) bullets and forcing the target to drop because of death or incapacitation. Much depends on where you shoot someone and SOCOM found that the highest OSSR was achieved with a .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol firing hollow point bullets. That gives you something like .99 OSSR and the OSSR stays high no matter where you hit someone. Basic OSSR is calculated assuming a hit in the center of mass. It was long known that hollow point does more damage but lots of battlefield experience since September 11, 2001 made it clear that hollow point ammo was a key tool in limiting the effectiveness of Islamic terrorists.
There is a popular and long-standing myth that hollow point bullets (that expand on hitting and create larger and more damaging wounds) are illegal according to the Geneva Convention. That treaty does not mention bullets.

The later 1899 Hague Convention does and it prohibits some types of hollow point bullets.

The U.S. never signed the Hague Convention and was never bound by it.

But in deference to allies who did sign American forces have rarely used hollow point bullets.

One frequent exception was for certain types of commando operations, like hostage rescue. No allies ever complained about this.

Shortly after 2001 SOCOM and the marines, responding to complaints from troops that the standard 5.56 and 9mm full metal jacket bullets were not doing enough damage to stop fanatical Taliban fighters, began issuing hollow point bullets and troops were satisfied with the improved stopping power.

As a result the Marines are going to switch over to the MK318 hollow point (or “open tip”) round for its assault rifles and machine-guns. T

he existing M855 full metal jacket rounds will be used up in training exercises. SOCOM has also switched to hollow point for pistols (9mm and 11.4mm) and rifles. The army is watching all this carefully.

Didnt SOCOM use the MK262 mod0 since years? It's a black hills 77gr HP.

 

[PappyM3]

Didnt SOCOM use the MK262 mod0 since years? It's a black hills 77gr HP.

Not just SOCOM. Regular Army units have been using it as well in their sniper sections and any Squad Designated Marksmen who could get their hands on it. Regular Army sniper sections have also been using boat tail hollow point 7.62 for a while as well.

 

[jasons]

OTM bullets like the Sierra SMK used in Mk262 are not considered "hollow point" and are not designed to expand on impact. The only reason that the tip is open like that is because they put the jackets on backwards so that the boat tail (which is the part that matters most for accuracy) is smooth. So yes various branches have been using OTM rounds for years but that has nothing to do with any sort of policy restricting expanding bullets.

 

[righteousbarbarian]

This use of hollow point, rather than full metal jacket ammo, began with pistols. SOCOM experimented and found that a full-metal jacket 9mm round has a one-shot stop rate (OSSR) of 70 percent, while the best 115-grain 9mm hollow point has a one-shot stop rate of 91 percent.

OSSR is largely just a way to measure the relative stopping power of different (in terms of caliber, design and weight) bullets and forcing the target to drop because of death or incapacitation. Much depends on where you shoot someone and SOCOM found that the highest OSSR was achieved with a .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol firing hollow point bullets. That gives you something like .99 OSSR and the OSSR stays high no matter where you hit someone. Basic OSSR is calculated assuming a hit in the center of mass.

That's really very interesting. A 99% OSSR for .45 ACP center of mass hits? Do you have a source on that?