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Dadstoys

Dadstoys

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Have an unusual situation that I'm hoping someone might have an answer for.
Going in a week or two to give a lady a ballpark appraisal on some guns.
The situation is that her spouse has been involuntarily committed .
He's not getting out, ever .
She is in some financial distress and would like to sell the guns.

We're not talking about family heirlooms or anything.
The guy bought a ton of stuff that was never even taken out of the box. He never even shot or hunted.

Anyway.
What might this lady be able to do to legally get this stuff sold ?
Getting him to sign off is not an option.

Any advise would be welcome
Thanks.
 
IANAL, but until she is declared his guardian or otherwise by the court, I would think that disposing of his property would be problematic, especially where the owner can not do a eFA-10 or do a FFL transfer.

IMHO if she does not have Power of Attorney from the owner, or a court order making her a Guardian, she needs to get legal standing BEFORE the cops come knocking on the door looking for them... depending on if they know he is a red flag candidate.

How close are you to the people involved? Close enough that she would let you hold the guns as a LTC holder if she is not?

If she gives them to the cops for safe keeping, or they take them, getting them back is going to be problematic IMHO
 
I believe a P O A might be the best way to go.....Notorized... I know that I have such powers due to my Son being in the Military and having to register his vehicles and do other Legal things for him, should he need me to do. NOT a Lawyer, but I think if she gets this (POA) she may be covered to disperse the "assets" NEVER go and hand over weapons to the PD, it's gonna be a real hassle getting them back... Even a Safe Storage building might be in order until things get ironed out?
 
The state is MA.
And the guns are being held by a licensed person since before the commitment.
There won't be any issues with LE involvement .
That part is said and done.
I will ask her about the power of attorney / guardian thing.
If she does have that , would it be a simple transfer ?

I think the best thing for her to do is to put them on consignment at a local shop.
She wouldn't want to go through selling them private sale one at a time.

Thanks for the advise.
 
Dadstoys said:
The state is MA.
And the guns are being held by a licensed person since before the commitment.
There won't be any issues with LE involvement .
That part is said and done.
I will ask her about the power of attorney / guardian thing.
If she does have that , would it be a simple transfer ?

I think the best thing for her to do is to put them on consignment at a local shop.
She wouldn't want to go through selling them private sale one at a time.
Click to expand...

I don't have anything to add about the legal issue, but consignment isn't always fast. Especially if the guns aren't really valuable or high-demand. Gunbroker or Armslist might be the better option. If you're willing to appraise them, you could help her out with Gunbroker or Armslist.
 
C. Stockwell said:
I don't have anything to add about the legal issue, but consignment isn't always fast. Especially if the guns aren't really valuable or high-demand. Gunbroker or Armslist might be the better option. If you're willing to appraise them, you could help her out with Gunbroker or Armslist.
Click to expand...

I don't have any idea how many or what just yet.
 
teamRR said:
No lawyer but isn't a wife basically a co-owner of the husband's property?

Maybe some odd MA state law concerning line of ownership that goes without saying, but in NH I don't see what's wrong with a FTF sale cash & carry or a transfer at an FFL if she wants to be anal about it.
Click to expand...

No. Not automatic. Especially if he's not dead. There's going to be a power-of-attorney or guardian ad litem. This could be the wife, but isn't necessarily so.
 
C. Stockwell said:
No. Not automatic. Especially if he's not dead. There's going to be a power-of-attorney or guardian ad litem. This could be the wife, but isn't necessarily so.
Click to expand...

Thx - once I saw the follow up that it was MA deleted my post. Way more complicated. In NH (provided its not nfa) it would still be as simple as wife:"he gave them to me"
 
After you get info from a lawyer on how to sign them over to a gun shop...

Put them on consignment and let the shop do the work.

There is a particular shop in Mass that does some high volume consignments and moves gun pretty fast.

Another complication is transporting all those guns to the shop.
Not sure but I think somebody in the vehicle needs a LTC.
 
If she did not already have a P.O.A. in place BEFORE he was committed, it is too late now as anything she did could be challenged based upon he was not competent at the time to execute the document.

This is why it is so important to have a durable Power Of Attorney in the event of incapacitation and a Health Care proxy in place at all times.
 
appraiser said:
If she did not already have a P.O.A. in place BEFORE he was committed, it is too late now as anything she did could be challenged based upon he was not competent at the time to execute the document.

This is why it is so important to have a durable Power Of Attorney in the event of incapacitation and a Health Care proxy in place at all times.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^ This above...... That's exactly why my Son did this before he got deployed in the past couple years.....I'm still in control of his affairs should he be deployed again or God forbid.. something happens to him.
 
Remember a P.O.A. becomes invalid upon the death of the person granting it, or upon notification it has been revoked....

That is why the third document you need is a current will.... things change, keep your will up to date.

I had a rather famous friend that created a permanent solution to a temporary problem.. he was engaged at the time, but his will named a long ago GF as his beneficiary of everything except what he provided for his children.

The Fiance had to buy the house from the old GF in order to stay in it....
 
I am going to have to find out if there is either POA or Guardianship .
It's a relative of a friend so I don't have much information as of now till I meet with her.
Assuming she has either , would that allow her to dispose of them straight up or would there need to be additional paperwork ?
Would she need to show proof of either to be able to sell them ?
 
P.OA or court ordered guardianship allows her to dispose of assets, assuming the POA is worded in such a way as to allow it. Most POA's are pretty broadly worded, especially between spouses. The real world situation is 99% of FFLs won't ask and unless there are children from a previous relationship trying to grab Dad's money, nobody is going to ask questions
 
Reptile said:
After you get info from a lawyer on how to sign them over to a gun shop...

Put them on consignment and let the shop do the work.

There is a particular shop in Mass that does some high volume consignments and moves gun pretty fast.

Another complication is transporting all those guns to the shop.
Not sure but I think somebody in the vehicle needs a LTC.
Click to expand...
I think I know which shop you are referring to.
I sold some guns through them on consignment. It was very easy and I didn't have to do anything except deliver the guns to them.
Got a good price for everything. Consignment fee was a little high (18%) but I didn't have to deal with flakes and paperwork.
IMPORTANT: After the guns are sold you must record the sale with an FA-10. All you need is the dealer's MA dealer # and the gun info. That way the state knows you don't own the gun anymore so if it is ever involved in a crime you're off the hook. For the transfer date I use the date I delivered the guns to the dealer.
 
LLF said:
IMPORTANT: After the guns are sold you must record the sale with an FA-10. All you need is the dealer's MA dealer # and the gun info. That way the state knows you don't own the gun anymore so if it is ever involved in a crime you're off the hook. For the transfer date I use the date I delivered the guns to the dealer.
Click to expand...
No you don't have to FA-10 it to the dealer and not every dealer has a MA Dealer # (e.g. sell/put on consignment in NH), so you can't fill out the form anyway.

You are never off the hook as they never remove your name associated with any gun that has ever been registered to you. That was told to me directly by the FRB Director, I asked.
 
Len-2A Training said:
No you don't have to FA-10 it to the dealer and not every dealer has a MA Dealer # (e.g. sell/put on consignment in NH), so you can't fill out the form anyway.

You are never off the hook as they never remove your name associated with any gun that has ever been registered to you. That was told to me directly by the FRB Director, I asked.
Click to expand...
FRB told me (I asked) that I should do the FA-10 showing the transfer to the dealer. I don't know about NH, I don't live there and am not consigning any guns out of state.
Maybe my name will always be associated with the guns but if I ever get questioned about a gun I sold on consignment, I have two pieces of paper that show I no longer own the gun: the receipt from the dealer when I consigned the guns and the FA-10s.
 
LLF said:
FRB told me (I asked) that I should do the FA-10 showing the transfer to the dealer. I don't know about NH, I don't live there and am not consigning any guns out of state.
Maybe my name will always be associated with the guns but if I ever get questioned about a gun I sold on consignment, I have two pieces of paper that show I no longer own the gun: the receipt from the dealer when I consigned the guns and the FA-10s.
Click to expand...
FRB makes up all sorts of stuff all the time. There is no legal (MGL) requirement to FA-10 a transfer to a dealer anywhere. Legally you can sell or consign a gun to a dealer in any state. For snowbirds it might be FL while they spend the Winter there. My point is that the website does not allow you to attempt an FA-10 to a dealer anywhere unless they have a MA Dealer's License number and non-MA dealers don't have such a number.

Also, I could sit down and create FA-10s for whatever guns I wanted to show as disposed to a dealer, as long as I have their MA Dealer number. Since they don't sign it, no court should ever accept a self-created document as proof of a transfer. Just take the dealer receipt and staple to your FA-10 from when you bought it, done!
 
Dadstoys said:
Have an unusual situation that I'm hoping someone might have an answer for.
Going in a week or two to give a lady a ballpark appraisal on some guns.
The situation is that her spouse has been involuntarily committed .
He's not getting out, ever .
She is in some financial distress and would like to sell the guns.

We're not talking about family heirlooms or anything.
The guy bought a ton of stuff that was never even taken out of the box. He never even shot or hunted.

Anyway.
What might this lady be able to do to legally get this stuff sold ?
Getting him to sign off is not an option.

Any advise would be welcome
Thanks.
Click to expand...
U don’t know who the attorneys are on here?
 
Dadstoys said:
Have an unusual situation that I'm hoping someone might have an answer for.
Going in a week or two to give a lady a ballpark appraisal on some guns.
The situation is that her spouse has been involuntarily committed .
He's not getting out, ever .
She is in some financial distress and would like to sell the guns.

We're not talking about family heirlooms or anything.
The guy bought a ton of stuff that was never even taken out of the box. He never even shot or hunted.

Anyway.
What might this lady be able to do to legally get this stuff sold ?
Getting him to sign off is not an option.

Any advise would be welcome
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Pay cash. Take possession of the guns. Lock them in your safe. Shut your mouth. Just pass up any potential Class 3/NFA stuff. You don't want to get involved with potentially unregistered NFA weapons. Not worth it!
 
LLF said:
FRB told me (I asked) that I should do the FA-10 showing the transfer to the dealer. I don't know about NH, I don't live there and am not consigning any guns out of state.
Maybe my name will always be associated with the guns but if I ever get questioned about a gun I sold on consignment, I have two pieces of paper that show I no longer own the gun: the receipt from the dealer when I consigned the guns and the FA-10s.
Click to expand...
Just my .02 worth here. Like Len said, you're never off the hook, as you're name, and any other names associated with sale or disposition of the guns is as well.
AE. In 2005, I purchased a Charter Pug from a dealer in Maine. (Lens2A knows who I'm talking about) and seeing I'm a NH Resident, I had it Transferred via their NH Transfer Station. took posession of it, and off I went. Fast forward 2 years< I traded the Pug to a Dealer in Pelham NH and picked up a Smith model 60 revolver.
NOW.....Here's the deal......Last November 2019, I get a Letter from the Blaine MO Police Dept. Letter stated " On 00/00/00 We conducted a Routine Traffic Stop, and during the routine stop, we retrieved a Charter Arms Pug 44 spl revolver S/N XXXX. With that, The ATP TRacing Center has conducted a search, and your name was associated with the revolver. Please contact us at (PD Number) and ask for Ms XYZ with any details regarding Ownership, and/or information if you still are the Lawful Owner of the revolver mentioned. Thank you for your time and efforts.
Blaine MO Police Dept
I called them, gave them the approx date of disposition and Dealer whom I traded the gun with. They were fine with it, and thanked me for my efforts. The Dealer I traded the gun to, must have sold it on Gunbroker, Traded it with another FFL or shipped it to another FFL after I had it.
Thus, you're never "off the hook" so to speak, as the ATF tracing Center can track the gun, from "Birth to Death" if they need to.
 
Len-2A Training said:
No you don't have to FA-10 it to the dealer and not every dealer has a MA Dealer # (e.g. sell/put on consignment in NH), so you can't fill out the form anyway.

You are never off the hook as they never remove your name associated with any gun that has ever been registered to you. That was told to me directly by the FRB Director, I asked.
Click to expand...
Len, I cannot agree with your assertion.

Mgl 140 129c excerpt


No person shall sell, give away, loan or otherwise transfer a rifle or shotgun or ammunition other than (a) by operation of law, or (b) to an exempt person as hereinafter described, or (c) to a licensed dealer, or (d) to a person who displays his firearm identification card, or license to carry a pistol or revolver.

A seller shall, within seven days, report all such transfers to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services according to the provisions set forth in section one hundred and twenty-eight A


It is easy to read this section as requiring reporting of transfers both to individuals (d) and to licensed dealer (c) which in this chapter means one licensed under sec 122. The interpretation by the FRB that this means an fa10 for transfer to a MA dealer and their training of new dealers to this effect is not inconsistent with the reading of the quoted section. It may not be common practice and may never have been the practice during paper fa10s, but I see where it comes from.
 

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