The great SKS debacle continues...

[Fooped]

Hey everyone,

I started a thread asking a question ways to identify pre-ban SKS hi-cap mags, and in turn opened a can of worms the size of Idaho. Through an enormous amount of research, and a little reading between the lines, I am under the impression that modifying an SKS is functionally illegal, unless I start changing a slew of parts to U.S. made versions. I further understand that even if I get to the "10 or less" imported part count, I still have to remove the "evil features" to be in compliance with the Mass AWB. I understand that having "10 or less" imported parts in the gun clears me where the federal ban is concerned, but why do I have to remove anything else to comply with Mass as the gun is still clearly made before 1994? I have also heard that 6 or more US parts on the gun, regardless of the number of Foreign parts, also gets one clear of the federal ban. Any truth to that?

Here's what I'd like to end up with:

Yugo 56/66 SKS
Tapco pistol grip stock with collapsible buttstock and Weaver handgrip
Detachable magazine (30 would be nice, but if it's a legal dealbreaker, I'll stick with 10)
Halo red dot scope
Grenade launcher and Bayonet intact (if possible)

Do I understand that if I continue to replace import parts with U.S. made ones (and I get to "10 or less") I'm in the clear?

And I thought the mag indentification was confusing...

 

[drgrant]

Hey everyone,

I started a thread asking a question ways to identify pre-ban SKS hi-cap mags, and in turn opened a can of worms the size of Idaho. Through an enormous amount of research, and a little reading between the lines, I am under the impression that modifying an SKS is functionally illegal, unless I start changing a slew of parts to U.S. made versions. I further understand that even if I get to the "10 or less" imported part count, I still have to remove the "evil features" to be in compliance with the Mass AWB.
I understand that having "10 or less" imported parts in the gun clears me where the federal ban is concerned, but why do I have to remove anything else to comply with Mass as the gun is still clearly made before 1994?

The Mass AWB should be irrelevant in all this, as most SKSs are pre-94
manufacture. Most are unissued old mil surplus, etc... so theyre obviously
way before the ban.

The problem with 922R is I dont think that cares about date of manufacture
all that much. Changing the furniture to US is generally not enough, often
you must change fire control parts, things like that. Generally more effort
than it is worth.

Of course, mind you, enforcement of 922R is limited at best. The ATF
could shut down just about every other gun shop in america with that
reg, if it wanted to... problem is its so specius and vague. I know of
at least 3 stores off the top of my head that have had noncompliant SKSes
in their inventory. It's almost a fixture of every gunstore... that SKS with
the tapco thing on it and the 30 rnd chinese mag. Most of them sit there
and collect dust.

IMO I think SKSes should just be left alone and people doing all this stuff
should just buy an AK instead..... tis a lot easier and its a lot easier to find
magazines, etc..... and most of them already have the required US parts
count or are 922R exempt by some means. Not to mention that not
all of those SKS abomination mags actually even work properly to begin
with... whereas only the worst AK on the face of the earth will fail to
feed from a decent AK mag. The SKS was designed to be fed from its
internal magazine. The chinese imported some guns which reportedly
worked fine with the big mags but those are few and far between (Norinco?).

I just tricking out an SKS is like trying to turn a compact car into a
dump truck, or something.... it just doesnt pan out that well in
reality.

Just my 2 cents of course... take it or leave it.


-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think Mike is "right on".

When I first got my C&R there were lots of posts in various fora about putting the hi-cap mags on SKS'. Most reports were that doing this effected reliability more often than not. Thus, my decision to essentially leave my C&Rs "stock".

YMMV

 

[securityboy]

The Mass AWB should be irrelevant in all this, as most SKSs are pre-94 manufacture. Most are unissued old mil surplus, etc... so theyre obviously way before the ban.

-Mike

That is true but wrong. It is true that most SKS's were made before the ban BUT they weren't configured as an assualt weapon prior to the ban, date of manufacture is sort of irrelavent, gun needs to have been an AW prior to the ban...

 

[drgrant]

That is true but wrong. It is true that most SKS's were made before the ban BUT they weren't configured as an assualt weapon prior to the ban, date of manufacture is sort of irrelavent, gun needs to have been an AW prior to the ban...

Good point, hadn't really thought about that angle. Disregarding 922R
for the moment, that means he'd have to rip off the FH and the bayonet,
and (maybe the grenade launcher?). Then you'd have a franken-SKS.

-Mike

 

[Producer]

I am sure everyone knows about this site http://www.simonov.net/10orlessrule.htm.

The AWB and 922r applies to anything you do to your firearm today. I say that because I just went over this with an ATF friend of mine about my first SKS. One of the first guns I got in 1987 for $40, and I tricked the hell out of it. I hardly ever took it out, and it sat in my parent’s attic for about 15+ years. A few months ago, I took it out, cleaned it, and took it to the range with my friend. A very fun gun, and its in perfect shape. Since I did all the changes in 1987-88, and I had paper work to prove it, this gun is 100% legit.

However to put a detectable magazine on it today is against AWB mass. I don’t know if the mags have improved over the years, and would like to have one. The one I had ages ago did not work well, and I lost it. Plus, everything I have read says they do not work. I know the change is very easy, but it can not be done in mass today, unless it was done before AWB mass. Regardless of the Mag’s age.

The one thing I did do, is replace the scope. There was some questions about the legality, but I feel very confident I did nothing wrong by replacing the broken part with a US made one.

 

[Nickle]

The gun mentioned in the first post would be legal in most states, after the compliance parts were installed to comply with the Import Ban. As I understand it, it would not be legal in Mass, since it was NOT an "AW" prior to 1994 (it wouldn't be legal under the old Federal AWB). The date of manufacture of the gun or the parts is irrelevant.

I have an SKS with a High Cap Mag. Using it as a detachable isn't a great idea, since I can fill it with 2 or 3 stripper clips, faster than changing it.

But it is reliable. Some mags are, some aren't.

And I don't care how many illegal SKS's are in shops. Do you want to be the ONE person that's prosecuted?

 

[drgrant]

And I don't care how many illegal SKS's are in shops. Do you want to be the ONE person that's prosecuted?

Hell no. That's why I don't have a modified SKS. I'm not even
advocating here that anyone break the law... that's certainly not the
intent of my statement. I think it is appropriate for people to know about
what is occuring "in reality". And in the case of 922R, the waters are
murky, at best.

I mean, what, exactly, pray tell, is going to stop the ATF from trying to
bring a 922R case on someone who claims (and believes) that his
gun is 922R compliant?

There's only one answer... it's called prosecutorial discretion. (and
maybe with a dose of lack of probable cause mixed in).

There exists a sort of bidirectional impasse with 922R.

If the burden of proof is on the ATF to prove wrongdoing, it's going to
be very difficult for them to do that. (Well, obviously if the gun has
all the parts stamped with MADE IN CHINA in big letters it might be a bit
easier... but when was the last time you saw that? Most gun parts like
pistons, hammers, etc, have very little indication of origin... while
they might have some markings, some don't really mean anything, or even
if they do, they might be replicated, or nonexistant.

If the burden of proof is on the owner, how is the owner going to
prove that his gun is compliant? Is someone making a sworn statement
saying "To the best of my knowledge, this gun is compliant." good
enough? Or are you going to be pushed to task to prove your
case? Will an empty parts bag and a reciept for those shiney, unserialized
supposedly-made-in-the-US parts be enough?

That folks, is the $64,000 question.

Oh, and then theres the whole issue of the word "Assembles" in 922R. It's not "Posesses". That's a whole
nother can of worms.... so in addition to proving the origin of the parts, theyd have to prove that -YOU- made
the gun that way. (At least that's how 922R reads....)

-Mike

 

[Nickle]

Actually, most companies (if not all) that deal in Compliance Parts mark the parts accordingly. Believe it or not, even TRIGGER parts get marked.

Mike, I knew you didn't advocate breaking the law, but some folks just think it's no big deal and break the law. An illegal SKS would be HARD to spot, unless it's a Yugo. They were virtually impossible to come by until just a few years ago, and the Import Ban goes back to 1989 originally. Almost nobody did compliance parts for the SKS until a very few years ago, so a Yugo with multiple Evil Features would be a No-Go in certain states, like Mass.

If you want a detachable mag SKS, get a Chinese SKS and keep it simple, just the mag change and compliance parts. Should be legal in Mass, unless SKS's with detachable mags are specifically singled out in the laws.

If you want a tricked out gun, get a WASR and spare yourself the trouble and headaches.

 

[Producer]

There's only one answer... it's called prosecutorial discretion. (and
maybe with a dose of lack of probable cause mixed in).

There exists a sort of bidirectional impasse with 922R.

Good Point! That describes 922R.

The government sues people so they can justify there own jobs.

 

[Nickle]

The government sues people so they can justify there own jobs.

Only the .gov types, not the .mil types.

We (.mil) know we serve the public, not the public serves us.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Nickle,

I don't think anyone here thinks of .mil when we discuss "gov't".

 

[Len-2A Training]

True story . . .

In 2000 I bought a Romanian SAR-1. Importer was Century. Finding no clue what parts are US made vs. foreign, I called Century Customer Service and asked them for the info.

Century's answer was that they change parts all the time, that they don't keep track of which is which. So, there is no good way for any of us (as buyers) to have frickin clue about compliance with 922r!

The only safe thing I can say is replace any part only with a US made part and you should be OK, otherwise it is a crap-shoot.

NOT encouraging.

 

[Nickle]

Len, Century replaces all 3 trigger parts and the pistol grip on the AK type guns. The trigger parts are for sure, if the gun is a High Cap.

RomAK 3's don't have any parts changed, IIRC, since they aren't considered to be "Evil".

And I do know that most folks don't consider .mil's to be the undesirables of Gov't employees. We just dislike them a little more than most folks, believe it or not.

 

[n1heu]

Just to throw another log on the fire, I think 922r only makes the act of creating an otherwise unimportable arm. I'm not so sure about owning the arm after the fact. Seem to me they would need to prove you bought a non-prohibited arm, then the parts to assemble a prohibited arm, then have the assembled prohibited arm. Again, I would not want to be the test case on this, but it does beg the question, exactly WTF does the law mean?

 

[Nickle]

This issue has been discussed fairly well over at FALFiles.com and AKFiles.com.

They only have to prove you don't have a compliant firearm. This is very clear in the Federal Regs, as published by BATFE. Adding the items after the fact is still a violation of 922.

 

[CaveDog]

Can't speak for the MA AW ban, but under 922r you'll have to ditch the yugo grenade launcher and replace it with a US made muzzle attachment like a muzzle brake if you go with the Tapco T6 style stock. Changing the stock would void it's C&R status, so the GL has to go. I believe you'd also have to ditch the bayo but maybe not. They do make the T6 with a bayo cutout. To win the ten or less game you'd have to buy an aftermarket magazine anyway(counts for three compliance parts), so you could go with the 30 rounder. Seems most people say the USA brand mags are the most reliable for the SKS. Aside from swapping the GL for a muzzle brake, you'd have to replace about 8 parts. Nothing in the trigger group, mostly easy to replace stuff.

You are correct as far as the goal being to have ten or less foreign parts left. Anytime you disassemble the rifle and make a substantial modification, ATF regards it (legally) as a new rifle. If it has ten or less forign made parts from thier list, it's then considered US made.

For a good run down on 922r and the SKS, read through Survivor's SKS FAQ. The guy who wrote it from SKS boards has been back and forth with ATF so many times they're sick of him asking questions, so he does have a clue.

If you have more 922r questions, check out Survivor's SKS boards. People are usually very helpful in the legal forums. LEShwartz is the authority (he wrote the FAQ), but most know what they're talking about.

Hope that helps.

 

[Fooped]

That helps a ton Cavedog! Thanks to you and all the others that were so generous with their time and knowledge on this complicated subject. Between the info in this thread and the links to the other boards/faqs, I'm pretty sure I can make the gun compliant on a federal level. Now does anyone know the "final word" on the Mass AWB and how it may (or may not) affect this particular configuration I would like to create?

Thanks again to all!

 

[Producer]

I would say No. Modifying an existing gun to take Hi-Cap is in violation of AWB mass. It is illegal to buy an SKS with a High Cap from out of state, unless these was proof that it was imported into the US that way.

But if its been in MA all these years, who would know it was not always like that if the Mag was made before 98? (I am not suggesting you do this). This is where the grey area is hit, and the Gov has to prove you did this.

Nickel is right about an AK being a better gun to trick out, and roman Hi caps are legal because they were originally imported like that. I love SKS's but they are Junk Guns.