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Not really. FBI had a knee jerk reaction to poor performing 9mm ammo, based on half assed wound ballistics science at the time. So they flailed about and went to 10mm Auto. Then when the form factor sucked (grip frames too big for many, particularly in doublestack guns) and people got too wuss like over it, and they wanted more capacity the .40 was birthed. And of course, half the non-fed LE agencies in america at the time would lap up the FBI's ball-sweat if it was offered on a plate, so tons of them followed like lemmings to adopt .40. Some of which perhaps at the time were still just getting off revolvers and the .357 magnum types perceived 9mm as being too weak, etc. Then 15 something years later everyone suddenly figured out the entire thing was a waste of time (particularly with better ballistics testing, and better ammunition) and most of these agencies gradually migrated back to 9mm or .45 ACP. The end. Ironically enough though the .40 did give birth to the .357 Sig, which at least was a purpose driven cartridge. (better intermediate barrier penetration with no deflection, something that .40 is absolutely terrible with, on average).
-Mike
That's what I expected for a response; only half the story. In the meantime, I had already drafted my own response -
I look at the development of the .40 as being a more practical compromise rather than intentionally designed to be weaker.
When the FBI did their testing on the 10mm circa 1990 in response to the poor performing 9mm, they determined that a 180gr bullet moving at 900 to 1,000 fps reached the "level of terminal performance" that they desired. Without delving into it deeper, I don't know what parameters the FBI used to define their level of terminal performance. However, what is known is that a 180gr bullet in a 10mm moving at 1,300 to 1,400 fps didn't make sense to them due to the heavier recoil that was difficult for some agents to handle when they could use a shorter case to reach their desired level of terminal performance. In addition, a shorter case with less air space and a cartridge that could be used in a 9mm sized gun, the .40 appeared to be an optimal compromise for them. The success of the .40 for the next 20-25 years after 1990 spoke for itself.
I think that some people, not including you, think that the advances in 9mm technology tend to make it a superior cartridge to the .40 or .45 when that is not the case. The advanced technology in the 9mm is also used in the .40 and .45 (and other calibers), so to me, the advanced 9mm makes it superior only when comparing it to the "old" specs/performance of the 9mm.
The lack of a +P rating for the .40 by SAMMI doesn't mean much of anything that I can see.
Remington's High Terminal Performance 155gr .40 defense cartridge is rated at 1,205 fps and 500 ft. lbs., so that's nothing to sneeze at when it's loaded hotter than some commercial 10mm rounds.
I presume that this performance is attained within SAAMI specs using a lighter weight bullet; otherwise, it would be marketed as +P.
I realize that I'm preaching to the choir for the most part, but I think that these distinctions in the development of the .40 need to be made.
Swage that .40 brass into .45 projectiles! I want to see that on CSI some day! “The victim was shot with a .40.” “How can you tell?” “The bullet says so.”
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Yes, cosmetically, not the best example. The fact remains that it doesn't have a lot of headroom. Try to "experiment" with .40 S&W, if you use 180gr bullets it won't take much before the gun
blows up or you get a nice casehead blowout. On the other hand with other cartridges theres a much greater range of breathing room.
-Mike
Wut? I've been shooting 180 gr .40 bullets for a few years now. They don't shoot as flat as the old 155's, but less felt recoil, still accurate enough out to 50 yards.
I've never seen a case 'blowout' anything, I've seen guns break from the old 155's we shot, but I've never seen a case issue in 10's of thousands of rounds. Even with the Barettas, never saw case malformation. Not saying it 'can't' happen, just not by me and never heard it talked about at the water cooler.
Lol what do you thnk a compromise is? You lose something, usually. In this case they limited the maximum performance of the cartridge on purpose. S&W showed up and created the cartridge to capitalize on the FBI's fetish for neutered 10mm.
It sure seems like the 40 does elicit more talk about it than any other caliber.
It was at this point that S&W realized that they could meet the same terminal performance with the Lite load that the FBI wanted with a shorter case. These developments happened in a continuum and was not just a simple decision to decrease the performance of the cartridge on purpose.
I don't know how it can be construed that the .40S&W wasn't successful when most of the LE agencies in the country were using it. It wasn't until 2016, a few short years ago, that the FBI decided on going back to the 9mm, so that gives the .40S&W better than a 20-year run, does it not?
No argument from me on this. This all happened when LE was transitioning from revolvers in the late 1980s and 1990's even though some LE agencies were still using revolvers well into the 1990s.
Not sure what relevance this has to the 10mm/.40 discussion, but if it makes you laugh, then I'm happy.
The restraints of the .40S&W case when using 180gr bullets should be well known by all reloaders, but since there are still ka-booms, not everyone has learned this lesson yet. I stopped using 180gr bullets years ago due to setback issues.
I never remotely implied that the Remington 155gr was anywhere near as hot as full power 10mm loads.
This is one of the most useful things I've ever seen someone do with .40.... I wonder what the accuracy is like on those...
-Mike
In the end though, .40 S&W is an intentionally neutered round from its parent cartridge. You can keep dancing around it but that was the design intent of the whole thing, instead of trying to actually fix most of the
perceived problems without destroying the versatility of the cartridge.
Yes, it had a long run in federal LE. There's a ton of agencies still using it. That said, WRT FBI, why would you expect the people that caused the entire problem to dump it first?
The fact remains a metric shit ton of LE agencies dumped it as soon as they could find a way out.
Yes, it did, and I think that was part of the problem. Chief businblah wanted to take some guy's .357 magnum away, and it was easier to get "some guy" to suck for .40 than 9mm, at the time. If "some guy" is still a police officer that .40s long since been dumped for a .45 though....
It has a ton of relevance- my point with that sidebar was that at least one agency had "seeds of doubt" about this willingness by the FBI to fornicate over the new cartridge nobody but they, had asked for.
My point is you can do some fairly heinous and crazy shit with 9mm and .45 and still be below the limits where you'll blow something up. On the other hand with .40, forget it. You can basically really only go "down" with .40.
As a point of contrast, Underwood's .40 S&W 165gr load specs at 1200 FPS. that is "hot" for .40. That's like a gain of like 50 fps over typical factory stuff in the same weight. That tells me there's not a lot of wiggle room there, if Underwood isn't even willing to push it much. On the other hand you go get some underwood 9mm or .45 and you'll see specs of anywhere from 100-200 over typical in weight.
I never said you did, just that in the grand scheme of things it's not really that hot. Not even compared to the load I just mentioned above. .40 is "boxed into a corner" by design. -Mike
It sure seems like the 40 does elicit more talk about it than any other caliber.
Mike, it's apparent that we are not going to agree with each other as noted by these discussions.
All I can say is that once the FBI ATTAINED their desired goal of reaching what they perceived as the best terminal performance for the round, there was no need to continue to develop it in their collective minds, and they didn't. So, if you want to continue to say that they "intentionally downloaded" it, I'm not going to debate that point any longer because as I said in the very beginning, there is more to the story.
With regard to LE federal agencies mostly using it, the majority of local/state LE agencies also used it. The last I heard, the BPD is still using the G22 while issuing G27s to detectives. If that has changed, it's only been very recent. The MSP moved to the .45 within the last couple of years and not the 9mm.
I’d tell you to look over at the swageing portion over at cast boolets. Though I’d wager EC could coach a class on .22lr brass into .223 projo’s, 9mm into .40, .40 into 45, and the rest of that fun.This is one of the most useful things I've ever seen someone do with .40.... I wonder what the accuracy is like on those...
-Mike
Because it's easily one of the top 5 most overrated handgun cartridges in existence, if not THE most overrated one.
However you want to spin it. Facts don't lie, and the fact is that S&W hacked down 10mm, the FBI was happy and S&W was happy (because they could sell lots of shit). In the moment, that's all that really mattered to the players involved. However, long term, the rest of us got to watch this shitshow....
You know how when a really good movie comes out, but it was released on the same weekend as some lame as hell pattern-type superhero or disaster movie with better advertising or name recognition etc? but nobody remembers the actual good movie because the popular shitty movie was released the same weekend? That's exactly what .40 S&W is. It's the shitty movie that drowned out better movie.
Yes BPD is still on .40 I think they have G23s in service, too. But a metric ton of other agencies dumped .40, and MSP did a long as time ago, it's been more than " a few years" now.
The proof is in the pudding on the used market, most LE trade in handguns are in .40, by like a ratio of like 3 or even 4 : 1 easily. Are any agencies even moving TO .40? I doubt it at this point. A lot will likely stick
with it for some time to come, though, if anything because "it works" and the shortcomings aren't exploited enough to make a difference in some settings.
At least unlike other stopgap technology the .40 still has niche uses. . I won't go so far as to call it completely worthless. It also ended up birthing the .357 Sig which ended up being pretty decent. Like I said I used to carry the things exclusively, hell, I probably have more "belt time" with my HK .40s than almost anything else. The guns worked well and I had a decent amount of confidence with them. I've also loaded ammo for them too (without blowing guns up) etc. So it'll never be quite as bad as a CFL bulb, but I can safely say that if the day ever comes where some gun shop commando is crying because they're not going to make some stupidly small handgun in .40 anymore because the manufacturer finally realized it was completely f***ing stupid idea, this will be my reaction at his despair... -Mike
As an additional consideration, the 10mm was by far the most accurate round tested, consistently providing one hole 10- shot groups at 25 yards of less than an inch (0.77" average) with both hand loaded and factory ammunition built to FBI specifications. By contrast, the 9mm averaged 2.3" and the .45 averaged 2".
Ask and you shall receiveI'm waiting for the ballistic gel test results...
Now we get a discussion about why there's so much discussion about the 40. It's overrated by some, but I'd say most of us realize it's just another caliber and that it's shot placement that counts more than caliber. Enjoy your day Mike!Because it's easily one of the top 5 most overrated handgun cartridges in existence, if not THE most overrated one.
Mike, you're going way off target (no pun intended) wrt the development testing protocols of the 10mm that led to the .40. I surmise that you got your info from reading gun writer interpretations of the 10mm story while you admittedly recall reading about this while sitting on the crapper.
To get the real story, you need to go directly to the source, which is the FBI and not some dumb gun writers making the wrong assumptions wrt to the FBI's testing protocols. When the FBI started testing new ammunition in the late 1980s, they initially focused on the 9mm and the .45. It was actually another section of the FBI that worked on the 10mm. When testing the commercial loads of the 10mm at that time, they found that the "high chamber pressures", the "heavy recoil", and the "muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round." This is what prompted the FBI to look into 10mm loadings that were more appropriate for their use.
In addition to the above, they also found that the increased velocities of the 10mm out of longer barrels (6") had a detrimental effect on the expansion and penetration of the hollow point rounds in their ballistic gel studies.
It was due to this poor performance that they decided that a 180gr bullet in velocities around 950 fps while using a shorter barrel was more in line with the velocities of the 9mm/.45, which they found was optimal for what they wanted. They also found that the 10mm was a much more accurate round than the 9mm or .45.
You can keep pushing the incorrect narrative from gun writers that the FBI "intentionally dumbed down" or was "happy with hacking down the 10mm" when the real facts indicate that the higher velocities were actually a hindrance to the performance of the round as noted in the attached FBI report from 1989.
Nope, but believe that if you want. My sidebar about the crapper/CDNN is referring to the mass exodus of .40 S&W handguns from law enforcement starting in the 2000s. Once more players started studying wound ballistics and other factors, and other guns got introduced, it started to fade in popularity to some degree. Not saying everyone dumped it or will dump it (I think it will remain popular in some circles for decades to come) but it's pretty obvious by this point that its the most frequently dumped cartridge in both LE and consumers. There's a lot of good reasons for that (which we've already covered ad nauseam).
I never disagreed with any of that.
That's really useful, who is going to carry a 6" handgun on duty? That said I understand why they did testing at that level.
Not disputing any of that.
....keep spinning the wheel.
There's nothing "incorrect" about it. I'm not talking about the gunwriter bullshit about "limp wristed fags at the FBI" or anything like that. I'm not saying that they needed to keep using full power 10mm ammo. My point is that the industry was willing to f*** up an entire cartridge/platform to get only what they wanted. That was the end result- and that's incontrovertible fact. No amount of "appeal to authority" reasoning is going to ever change that. FBI testing protocol does not magically legitimize the cartridge. In truth, the end outcome here was not necessarily the FBI's fault, either, but rather the industry wanted to make a quick buck off of their testing, because they found a way to leverage existing designs (basically by modifying 9mm handgun designs to take .40) , so they could sell a whole bunch of new guns, to both the FBI (and a ton of other fed agencies) and then a ton more to the thousands of agencies that read FBI testing as gospel. In a way the industry foisted the .40, with FBI FTU/Quantico gospel unintentionally anointing it, all because of a perceived deficiency in performance from existing platforms. It was much easier for the industry to do this by creating .40.
I will give them some credit, from a business perspective it is absolute marketing/hype/manufacturing genius. And far worse things could have happened...
-Mike
Ok, Mike, we'll go with your original assessment that the FBI intentionally dumbed down the 10mm and/or hacked up the round to get the .40S&W, although the real facts suggest otherwise.
What is non factual about what I said? Enlighten us. There's nothing that isn't factual about a reduced power cartridge being intentionally created as an indirect result of
the testing. Now you're basically just dragging this into semantics.
ETA: I agree what I posted later is SLIGHTLY different from what I originally said, so mea culpa on that.... but it still doesn't change the fact that the sausage making process involved here resulted in the industry creating, what amounted to, a shorter, weaker (in terms of it's full potential) 10mm cartridge to meet the FBIs needs and desires...
-Mike
.40 was literally designed to be a low-velocity 10mm round in a shorter case. I'd call that intentional.
I thought I was done debating this issue, but for some reason, you cannot let it go.
You keep using the phrase "intentionally created" or "intentionally dumbed it down" when that is not how the process worked.
Intentionally means deliberately, on purpose. I think that a better word to use is that the process "evolved" into the .40 as a result of the FBI testing.
Evolving into something else is quite different than stating it was done intentionally or deliberately, on purpose.
If you can't understand that after reading the FBI report,
it's my opinion that you are just digging in your heels and find being obstinate about the issue easier than just accepting the FBI facts, that are not my facts. It was a process that evolved along a continuum.
You then transitioned into how shitty the .40 was/is and most LE agencies were dumping it for the 9mm.
Would it shock you to learn that as of just one year ago, 6 of the 10 largest state/local LE agencies in the US either still issue the .40 and/or give their officers options to carry a firearm in a variety of calibers, including the .40? Or, that some agencies dropped the 9mm and .40 in favor of the .45?
Or, are these other facts that I am spinning? One or two of them even allow the carry of the .380 (must be some real pussies in those agencies).
Police Sidearms: The Handguns of America's 10 Largest Departments