Tell me about... Maine...

Hiltonizer

Hiltonizer

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This may not at first sound like the right sub-forum but bear with me...

So, I *shudder* the thought as a NH die hard... but I might have found a reason to consider moving to Maine.

We just got back from visiting some friends that moved up to Maine earlier this year. They, like us, decided they were sick of the BS down here and bought something they could easily trip over the money to pay for. (They are not Preppers, but choose a liberty oriented and agrarian lifestyle and really like popping off rounds. Area of topic is greater Skowhegan area)

Our intention when we bought this house here on the MA/NH border was that, when we have more equity, we're done with the city jobs and will move up north.. with a next-to-nothing mortgage, if one at all.

I've always loved NH, for many of the same reasons as most of you, but I also grew up on just barely on the wrong side of the border, and spent much time both working here and renting here. NH "feels" right to me, granite staters are my people. My only complaint is the MA plates on weekends and consequent traffic.

Our long term plan wasn't ever set in stone or narrowly defined, it was more like a general concept that depended on what opens up for opportunity... buy land and build later? buy a bug out location and improve it? wait it out and buy our homestead? stumble on a job and go balls deep? JUST MOVE NORTH!

Well, Maine is a hell of a lot cheaper than I ever gave it credit for... so cheap in fact we could get "almost" what we want now for cash and leave the city life behind us once in for all... nearly no debt. That means though a little less house, but A LOT more land. 30 acres and a mediocre house vs 5 acres in a great house... but the 5 acre great house costs almost 2x as much (NH). Long story short, I've been looking at it all wrong.. you need to ignore the MLS and look at FSBO's. And a particularly good opportunity has arisen that would actually allow us to buy property adjacent to said friends.

In the mold of Ben Franklin, I'm working on a list of pro's and con's and distributing to my friends (you wankers). What do you think and what do you know that I don't?

Pro's:
Cheaper and therefore doable now. We can quit risking our lives and health sitting Boston traffic.
Lax regulation in additions and outbuildings.
Lower population density/traffic.
Distance from metro if SHTF.
Worn out tin-roofs are socially acceptable visually. I love the idea of a one-time roof.
Close to long-time, like-minded friends.

Con's:
Government.. I just feel like NH has a leg up in this area. Stand your ground law makes me warm and fuzzy.
People.. I'm aware there is a generally similar rural mindset, but in central Maine drug use and welfarism seems to be rampant. I'd also be abandoning the free-state-project if I left NH.
Less available turnkey situations, would likely require building to which I'm a noob.
Feeling of being an outsider... culture shock?
Distance to familial visits.
Less likelihood of low-latency internet, which limits my side-work opportunities as an IT generalist.
Generally less favorable economic environment resulting in less income opportunities.

Taxation I consider a push overall where we won't be heavy on income and spending.

Context: We're in our very late 20's and this will be our second property, and ideally our forever property. Our "great bug out" you may call it. I am working with roughly 100k cash which would almost 100% cover Maine but not quite 50% cover NH. Income plan for property taxes and utilities is farm-standing and basic part time work in our fields of expertise.

Most of you are older and more grizzly... put this in perspective for me and share that wisdom.

EDIT: I should note that the woman is go-time with either but favors Maine given the cheapness and time-frame possibilities... and accuses me of seeing NH with rose-colored glasses... to which I correct her and say granite colored glasses [angry]
 
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You already mentioned Maine being a welfare state. They also don't allow hunting on Sundays. NH gun laws are a little more relaxed. We have more teeth per capita.
 
Buy a place with cash, live debt free and only need to work outside the home part-time ?

If you're not packing this morning you're crazy.

I'd be there in a heart beat.

(from NH ! )
 
I grew up in Maine and visit often. I do love it there but, given current circumstances, I'll be staying in NH.

Maine has sales tax, income tax, property tax on par with NH, limited job market.
 
I noticed no mention of kids in your post. Your plan seems like something I would love to do, in a few years when my kids leave the nest.

Maybe you don't plan on having kids, or maybe they are already figured in to your planning (homeschooling, etc...). For me, the kids are really driving the issue of where I live for at least the next 4 years.

Also, can't a lot of your 'pros' for Maine also apply to further north in NH?

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
NH is way better Hiltonizer. Maine has a little more restrictions on gun laws, higher taxes, no stand your ground law, and dumber government. I too have thought of the pros and cons, but I spent most of my time growing up in the White Mountains and the traffic dies off halfway through the heart of NH. Consider moving to a quieter neighborhood, with more land and a bigger house. Maine may offer more land but the houses will be much smaller. NH is live free or die, while Maine is I love Moose or some shit. [laugh]
 
We are a welfare state. The southern 2 counties support the rest of the state. Drugs are a growing problem in the rural areas but I think this is nationwide and not just ME. If you are looking to have kids look at the local school systems. Where I am the ME schools were better than the NH schools. We have plenty of taxes also. I love Maine but if I didnt work in ME and have to pay income tax anyway we would have lived in NH.

Before you jump on the property take a good look at it. It may be a smoking deal but why is it a smoking deal? What does it need and how much can you realistically do yourself? If the house isnt move in ready what does it need? Worn out tin roofs suck once they develop pin holes and rot out the rafters. They need to be painted. Remember that the further out you are the more expensive stuff is and the further you need to travel to get it. Gas that costs 3.95 a gal here is probably 4.30 in Jackman. I have found that the grocery stores are a lot lighter on fresh veggies etc the further out you go. What is the primary employment in the area?

It sounds like a great opportunity especially if you have friends up there but make sure it is really what you want. A lot of people think rural is great only to find out that is not as fun as they thought and a lot of work.
 
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Skowhegan may have changed since I last spent any time there (10 years ago, and honestly it wasn't a lot of time) but if you are looking at Skowhegan and want a fair comparison then look at Berlin NH. The Skowhegan I know is a depressed area with few job prospects, much like Berlin. Land is at a premium in NH because there is a lot less of it, especially north of the notches since so much of it is national forest. Maine has a lot of protected land but even more open land.

If you want to live free then NH is the better choice. Even if taxation is a wash because you will be earning and spending little the amount of government interference with your life will be lower in NH and all signs are pointing to it decreasing as the years go on. In Maine I've seen it increasing each year. As the economy has gotten worse rural Maine has had increasing crime rates and drug use. Some of that has been happening in NH but the tourism dollar in NH is better spread across communities than in Maine where the southern towns see the vast majority of the tourism money.
 
coastie said:
We are a welfare state. The southern 2 counties support the rest of the state. Drugs are a growing problem in the rural areas but I think this is nationwide and not just ME. If you are looking to have kids look at the local school systems. Where I am the ME schools were better than the NH schools. We have plenty of taxes also. I love Maine but if I didnt work in ME and have to pay income tax anyway we would have lived in NH.

Before you jump on the property take a good look at it. It may be a smoking deal but why is it a smoking deal? What does it need and how much can you realistically do yourself? If the house isnt move in ready what does it need? Worn out tin roofs suck once they develop pin holes and rot out the rafters. They need to be painted. Remember that the further out you are the more expensive stuff is and the further you need to travel to get it. Gas that costs 3.95 a gal here is probably 4.30 in Jackman. I have found that the grocery stores are a lot lighter on fresh veggies etc the further out you go. What is the primary employment in the area?

It sounds like a great opportunity especially if you have friends up there but make sure it is really what you want. A lot of people think rural is great only to find out that is not as fun as they thought and a lot of work.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, I was hoping you'd chime in being the resident Mainer.

We're not considering anything so far up that gas and groceries become a problem, I still want a reasonable drive to walmart/hannaford. Probably no more than an hour from Waterville is the radius.

Kid's are a non-factor fortunately. The wife may want some eventually but the plan then would be to homeschool until they can be shipped off to a voc.

I'll be sure to scrutinize any property thoroughly, this is the kind of thing I'm only interested in doing once. The price on the one in question seems in line with market value, its the location and the layout that make it really enticing (which are personal preferences, not market drivers)
 
Maine's gun laws are the same as NH. Don't let that be a factor in the decision.
The tax situation will be closer than you think. Prop tax in the Skow-town area is low.
The Govt is getting better. Republican Governor and legislature.
Definitely a welfare mentality in parts of the state.
Drugs are no worse than anyplace else in New England.
I don't know what low latency internet is.
We do have way more open land, solitude, access to the outdoors, and a more laid back approach. If you love the outdoors, Maine has it over any of the other Northeastern states.
As you can tell, I love it here. I've never lived anywhere else and I hope to god I never do.

NH's license plate says Live Free or Die, but that doesn't mean they have a monopoly on it.
 
Gun laws are good but ME is a couple order magnitudes more socialist in government than NH is, but it's still way less socialst than MA is.

If I had a job there I wouldn't hesitate moving there.

-Mike
 
I've had similar ponderings since I now live in NH but own some rural land in Maine. I'll be curious what you ultimately decide to do.

Land and housing can be incredibly cheap in Maine. Although, the economy is also quite depressed. I'd only be able to "work" there if I could telecommute to a job that is outside of Maine. The town I have the land in literally doesn't have a single office, factory or store (other than a general store). So, its a "bring your own job" deal.

The government does have a lot of moonbat leanings to it, but the rural areas of Maine are otherwise quite freedom loving. People are friendly and laid back, and you can hear the wonderful sound of sporadic gunfire in the distance and no one is alarmed. In the area where my land is, I could build a cabin without any permit... the only time a permit is needed (varies by town though) is anything having to do with "septic" and that includes an outhouse. I can't imagine an outhouse permit would be difficult to acquire though. You can sneak in a homemade gray-water system without getting a permit... just don't tell anyone. And another nutty thing to watch out for is "shoreland zones", which most of them aren't actually on the "shore"... non-intermittent brooks that have one or more branches feed into them qualify as "shoreland". Then, things just go crazy.... no building within 250 feet, no cutting trees without permission (even dead ones). But if you avoid all that, you should be all set.

You mentioned Skowhegan but be sure to consider western Maine. It is cheap and beautiful (has mountains, lakes, rivers, wildlife). I'm talking the area that is approximately from Auburn to Rangeley, as far east as Farmington (maybe a little farther east). But, as I mentioned, no jobs at all. Although, there are some noteworthy towns and cities that may be close enough drive to help out with that.
 
Prepper said:
And another nutty thing to watch out for is "shoreland zones", which most of them aren't actually on the "shore"... non-intermittent brooks that have one or more branches feed into them qualify as "shoreland". Then, things just go crazy.... no building within 250 feet, no cutting trees without permission (even dead ones). But if you avoid all that, you should be all set.
Click to expand...

That seems like a real pain in the nuts.. just did some googling as some of the land I'm looking as 1000' of frontage on a small stream. (can't figure out if that would fall under this. In one of the PDF's, it literally refers to pre and post-ban housing [rofl]

The jobs thing is only kind of a concern. Our expenses would be extremely low, and it looks like there's a shortage of IT people in the Waterville/Augusta areas based on a few jobs sites if it comes down to it, and the wife cuts hair. But even driving to a decent sized farmers market and selling pickles or some shit would cover the type of expenses we're planning on.

I know most of the gun laws are the same, but if anyone could comment on the lack of a true stand your ground law as this seems to be a key difference.
 
Hiltonizer said:
That seems like a real pain in the nuts.. just did some googling as some of the land I'm looking as 1000' of frontage on a small stream. (can't figure out if that would fall under this. In one of the PDF's, it literally refers to pre and post-ban housing [rofl]

The jobs thing is only kind of a concern. Our expenses would be extremely low, and it looks like there's a shortage of IT people in the Waterville/Augusta areas based on a few jobs sites if it comes down to it, and the wife cuts hair. But even driving to a decent sized farmers market and selling pickles or some shit would cover the type of expenses we're planning on.

I know most of the gun laws are the same, but if anyone could comment on the lack of a true stand your ground law as this seems to be a key difference.
Click to expand...

If you have a reasonable reason to fear for your life, you are justified in using deadly force. That doesn't mean you can shoot some kid coming at you with a water balloon.
 
What are your employment plans? Maine has a variable income tax rate of up to 8.5% (changing to 7.95% next year). The economy has struggled and the high tech sector that drives the rest of New England's economy is pretty small.
 
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I am near Farmington for now, and spend most of my time between here and places in the mountains west and north of here. I think all of the good points have been covered, the further away from a town with a name you recognize the better off you are. Plan on driving it always seems like anything you want to do requires an hour drive. The biggest problem is jobs, with logging and paper mills going down there are fewer good paying jobs in that area and manufacturing has been dead for quite some time. Otherwise, rural Maine is a good place to be if you want to be left alone.
 
98XJSport said:
<snip> rural Maine is a good place to be if you want to be left alone.
Click to expand...

A quick look at Bean Group or NNREN shows land at 500 to 1000 per acre if you don't mind getting creative about getting there or at least have 4X4's / quad's or dirt bikes.


Great locations for a BOL.
 
Farmington is a good town to be within range of, if you can. I had not passed through that town in a few years until just two weeks ago... I was shocked at all the development going on there. There are lots of new buildings being put up for new businesses. I think this is an anomaly in Maine though.

And the small cities of Auburn and Waterville were appealing to me, what little I knew of them. It has been a while since I've stopped in Waterville though so my info on that is not current.

To give you an idea of the price of land, my latest purchase came to about $600 an acre (and was bought just to increase the size of the lot I had already purchased earlier at a higher price). There are spectacular views from it, and small brooks (nothing that triggers shoreland rules). Access to it is by a 2 mile long gated logging road that needs to be maintained by the small group of us who own land up there. So far, there's no winter road plowing coordinated, and you can forget travel up the road during mud season. So, I'm not completely sure how feasible year-round living would be.
 
Prepper said:
To give you an idea of the price of land, my latest purchase came to about $600 an acre (and was bought just to increase the size of the lot I had already purchased earlier at a higher price). There are spectacular views from it, and small brooks (nothing that triggers shoreland rules). Access to it is by a 2 mile long gated logging road that needs to be maintained by the small group of us who own land up there. So far, there's no winter road plowing coordinated, and you can forget travel up the road during mud season. So, I'm not completely sure how feasible year-round living would be.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up on that. We're looking in roughly the 1k to 1200 asking price for 20-30 acre lots, but that would be traditionally buildable and offer year round access (though plowing isn't necessary, a plow for my truck and sleds are in the budget)
 
Prepper said:
you can forget travel up the road during mud season.
Click to expand...

Mattracks [smile]
8bd08a9a.jpg



Comes in Quad sizes too.
6196bd39.jpg
 
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Maine is #6 in welfare per capita. MA and NY are somewhere in the twenties. Ive seem so many people move up country with a wadnof city cash then get beaten down by economics. The living cheap idea isnt congruent with owning snowmobiles and quads and such toys. Without that stuff it os misrable in the sticks. Lots of leftism in ME govt, the R senators are a joke. The killer is jobs and if kids schools. Homeschooling is noble but very few people can pull it off, saying you are going to do it without a couple of rugrats on the ground is for most wishful thinking. Being able to shoot, ride, and burn things doesnt mean ,uch wothout the money to buy ammo and gas, be afraid of the economics up there.
 
Twigg said:
Mattracks [smile]
8bd08a9a.jpg



Comes in Quad sizes too.
6196bd39.jpg
Click to expand...

I want one of those! Although, it still won't do me much good since the logging road issue is more than just managing to get there through the mud... I also must not destroy the road in the process since everyone will be pissed (and probably want me to pay for it).
 
Twigg said:
Mattracks [smile]
Click to expand...

I just looked up pricing on those...it might be cheaper to just pave the whole road.

I like Maine a lot, and it used to be the place I wanted to live. But between their lack of jobs, expensive real estate(if you want to live near or on the coast), poor economy, and snowy winters, it's off the list. I do know a guy who just built his place in Maine, north of Bangor. He took a few months off and upgraded his cabin to a house - by himself. Impressive.

As for me, the wife likes Hawaii, but that is basically the anti-prepper's paradise. I think you move there if you don't want to survive.

I'm ambivalent about NH, but short of the Pacific Northwest, I think it's as good as it gets in this region. But I haven't made sense of current use law yet, and trying to sift through the thousands of properties to find something suitable is a fairly daunting task.

Maybe I'll just pitch a tent in the woods behind Riley's.
 
Update on our thoughts....

So after weighing various pro/cons scenarios... we're looking towards buying a completed (or almost completed, more on that later) house as a second home. One that we could use as a BOL and vacation home for a few years.

Given that it would be more of a traditional home than a cabin, it likely would not be paid for 100%, we'd float a small mortgage (50-70k at most). This will allow us to make it what we want it without sacrificing city income during the transition, and we could continue to leverage our city incomes for until we are completely comfortable. The mortgage payment being nothing more than a rounding error in our budget, and be a destination for funds other than savings. (maybe a little QE3 fear here I admit)

Once we are completely comfortable, I alone will seek a job in the area as part of the transition (it looks like high level IT is in strong demand up there, particularly where my salary reqs would be substantially lower). The wife's time will be spent towards growing a market gardening income until such time I can leave IT work and contribute.

Buying land and building doesn't seem to be cost effective, as there seems to be a cash advantage in buying something that needs work. There are a few deals on unfinished houses that work out to just buying land and getting a septic and well installed... with most of the house done. I could basically hire out a handy man for a month to finish things up in a few cases and save 30 grand by my estimations.

Day zero of a purchase would likely include landscape work, including cutting/stumping and planting a personal+ orchard. After the house is mostly livable, we'd consider buying a few sleds both for personal recreation, but as tertiary income via rentals (close to personal degrees of separation, not to the public). I do want at least one sled personally and for snow travel, and an ATV (http://www.theplotmaster.com/) as a poor man's tractor.
 
One thing to think about and I know we are on the survival board here but The one issue I always had with maine, or anywhere that remote.. Healthcare right now you likely live within a few minutes of great health care and within a hour of boston? Best health care city in the world.... I know you are in your late 20s with 100 k in the bank... And likely very healthy,, I was as well I was married 28 years old about 75k in the bank.. I woke up one day with leukemia... Buy the grace of God I am doing well now! But in the last 3 years I have had a bone marrow transplant and burned up just about every cent.. So just make sure where ever you go if you cut your leg in half with a chain saw you can get the help you need.. IE I wouldent go anymore then a hour away from portland..
 

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