Smart Guns for Feds: Proposed guidelines for Fed LEO smart gun standard

[Kevin_NH]

Today, July 15th, the National Institute of Justice published a proposal for "guidelines for smart guns" (PDF) for handguns used by federal law enforcement officers.

Public input ends September 13th.

In August, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) will hold a two-day "convening of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies" to review and discuss the proposed specs. After that, the Department of Justic and Department of Homeland Security will revise the guidelines before finalizing the document for publication.

Unlike previous designs targeting regular citizens, the NIJ standard includes multiple "fail hot" features, and stresses the importance of integrating the technology into a firearm's design without compromising the reliability, durability and accuracy that officers expect from their service weapons.

 

[alpineboard]

Was reading a past issue of "Smithsonian" magazine. Technology exists now for wireless mind control. Hook your brain sensor up to a PLC and you are controlling stuff with thoughts.The possibilities are endless here. Drive your car by thinking left right stop go. But in no way am I advocating it. A lot of amputees are controlling prosthetic fingers w/thoughts.
A gun is a gun, pull the trigger , it goes off. Keep it simple, some things do not need change.

 

[UncleDuke]

My younger brother is a Fed with the U.S. Department of Courts (DOJ). He is a firearms instructor, Glock armored, and carries a Glock 26 on the job. He informed me that U.S. Probation and the U.S. Marshal's Service plan to keep what they're carrying.

 

[Reptile]

I expect if smart guns come about there will be many more radio frequency hackers out there.

Just like the hackers that "READ" radio waves by sending them out to peoples wallets to steal credit card info - there will be hackers "SENDING" or blasting out radio frequency to destroy he electronics in guns.

Just imagine if a guy had some massive lithium ion back battery in a back pack along with a powerful transmitter. He could get nearby his smart gun target and blast out a huge electro magnetic pulse (EMP) that would fry any electronics in the immediate vicinity..

If mission critical health monitors like heart pacemakers are not even immune - how can smart guns be immune to such an attack?

If all the government and law enforcement agencies start to carry smart guns - maybe I will to.

I can say that though because even though I do not want a smart gun - am certain that mission critical agencies will not rely on something that can fail once a hacker is smart enough to figure out to render it inoperable.

Smart gun technology will be pushed by the anti-gunners and tyrants. They would love to have the authorities to be able to render a citizens gun inoperable remotely. Just like they want Apple to have a back door to read iMessage. What they fail to realize is that such technology will be able to be exploited by evil people too.

 

[Spanz]

when Obama is willing to put his life on the line outfitting his secret service agents with these, THAT is the day I might start to take notice of it.

 

[Fixxah]

What they fail to realize is that such technology will be able to be exploited by evil people too.

Pot meet kettle.

 

[JuergenG]

Friggin Armatix greasing some Palms?

 

[EJFudd]

... the NIJ standard includes multiple "fail hot" features...

Which, of course, contradicts the moonbat's whole smart gun concept.

 

[Dadstoys]

Never going to happen.
I think you'd see massive walk outs.
No way do they want to be saddled with some buggy POS that's going to cost them their lives.
That's for the rest of us.

 

[usp45ct]

Never going to happen.
I think you'd see massive walk outs.
No way do they want to be saddled with some buggy POS that's going to cost them their lives.
That's for the rest of us.

Meh, I see them carrying them just fine but with the he provision they get a backup of their choice. Then in the car or whatever, they switch the electronic for the real gun. After the recent FBI where walkouts were expected, and nothing happened, I don't see anybody putts no their pension or their lives on the line when they have an out. Besides, that way they can say see, you serfs, LEOs carry them so you will too.

 

[Dadstoys]

Meh, I see them carrying them just fine but with the he provision they get a backup of their choice. Then in the car or whatever, they switch the electronic for the real gun. After the recent FBI where walkouts were expected, and nothing happened, I don't see anybody putts no their pension or their lives on the line when they have an out. Besides, that way they can say see, you serfs, LEOs carry them so you will too.

Walk out over ethical matters is one thing, putting your personal safety at risk is another.
Even if they did suck it up and carry them to start, the first time one goes click instead of bang and someone dies because of it, it's going to be ugly.

 

[CTpatriot]

I would not be surprised if a majority of federal agents would accept this technology. The people being hired today or not the people being hired a few years ago.

 

[Asaltweapon]

The people being hired today or not the people being hired a few years ago.

Very true statement.

 

[Radtekk]

Friggin Armatix greasing some Palms?

With frog lube...

 

[enbloc]

Hope they never make an electronic transfer bar for my revolvers...

 

[Kevin_NH]

I'm not saying "Smart Guns" are a good idea, I'm saying they are a bad idea for other reasons than the obvious.

I'm looking forward to retail availability so the white hats can tear them down and hunt for the kill switch, see if they violate the Armatix patent or have other inherent flaws.

I expect if smart guns come about there will be many more radio frequency hackers out there.

Just like the hackers that "READ" radio waves by sending them out to peoples wallets to steal credit card info - there will be hackers "SENDING" or blasting out radio frequency to destroy the electronics in guns.

There are already quite a few hackers already into RF technology today; it's an interesting and growing area of research. But it is very difficult to generate a signal that will destroy, or even reliably jam, on-body electronics.

Just imagine if a guy had some massive lithium ion back battery in a back pack along with a powerful transmitter. He could get nearby his smart gun target and blast out a huge electro magnetic pulse (EMP) that would fry any electronics in the immediate vicinity.

And everybody within range with a dorsal stimulator or cochlear implant drops dead. Police arrest the guy (just look for the man with the backpack that is now on fire), charge him with multiple counts of premeditated murder.

Hyperbole aside, generating a huge electro magnetic pulse (EMP) is much more difficult than it sounds, all known true non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) weapon designs are single-use high explosive devices. Not exactly subtle.

Even reliably jamming an RFID exchange between, for example, the Armatix iP1 handgun and the active RFID transmitter in the paired wristwatch would be very difficult to reliably achieve from a distance. GPS and Cell phone jammers work because the interfering transmitter is so much closer to the receiver than the authentic transmitter.

 

[Reptile]

I'm not saying "Smart Guns" are a good idea, I'm saying they are a bad idea for other reasons than the obvious.

I'm looking forward to retail availability so the white hats can tear them down and hunt for the kill switch, see if they violate the Armatix patent or have other inherent flaws.


There are already quite a few hackers already into RF technology today; it's an interesting and growing area of research. But it is very difficult to generate a signal that will destroy, or even reliably jam, on-body electronics.


And everybody within range with a dorsal stimulator or cochlear implant drops dead. Police arrest the guy (just look for the man with the backpack that is now on fire), charge him with multiple counts of premeditated murder.

Hyperbole aside, generating a huge electro magnetic pulse (EMP) is much more difficult than it sounds, all known true non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) weapon designs are single-use high explosive devices. Not exactly subtle.

Even reliably jamming an RFID exchange between, for example, the Armatix iP1 handgun and the active RFID transmitter in the paired wristwatch would be very difficult to reliably achieve from a distance. GPS and Cell phone jammers work because the interfering transmitter is so much closer to the receiver than the authentic transmitter.

Interesting.

Maybe the hackers can make an antenna that would concentrate the RF and deliver over a long distance.

Kind of like those WiFi Pringles tubes that go for miles.

 

[JohnZ]

I don't think you're going to see brute force attacks trying to damage the electronics. You will see people hacking the code in the gun and sending it signals to shut itself down. Search youtube. There's a guy out there that hacked microsoft wireless keyboards and built a device that sent signals to the computer pretending to be the keyboard. He was able to control the computer that way and do pretty much anything he wanted. Let's say that you generated a signal that added a few extra bits so the gun no longer recognized the code being sent by the wristband/ring. Does the gun have a "shut down after so many unsuccessful code inputs?" An electronic device can generate thousands of codes per second. Anything that relies on/allows input from RF is vulnerable.

Software always has bugs/things that can be exploited.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I don't think you're going to see brute force attacks trying to damage the electronics. You will see people hacking the code in the gun and sending it signals to shut itself down. Search youtube. There's a guy out there that hacked microsoft wireless keyboards and built a device that sent signals to the computer pretending to be the keyboard. He was able to control the computer that way and do pretty much anything he wanted. Let's say that you generated a signal that added a few extra bits so the gun no longer recognized the code being sent by the wristband/ring. Does the gun have a "shut down after so many unsuccessful code inputs?" An electronic device can generate thousands of codes per second. Anything that relies on/allows input from RF is vulnerable.

Software always has bugs/things that can be exploited.

That's what I find most insidious about this proposal -- unlike civilian guns, the designs the Fed wants to issue to three letter agencies must all "fail hot"; any attempt to mess with the RF signal causes them to lock into an active state rather than disable them:

4.18.8 If the security device may be susceptible to electromagnetic interference, either intentional or unintentional, the device shall be equipped with countermeasure detection technology that permits the operator to fire the gun when an attempt to block the authorization process is detected.
. . .
4.18.12 If the security device malfunctions, it shall default to a state to allow the pistol to fire.

4.18.13 The security device should be easy for an operator to quickly reset or disengage if there is a malfunction.
. . .
5.2.8 Pistol performance shall not degrade when exposed to electromagnetic interference.

5.2.9 Pistols performance shall not degrade when exposed to mechanical shock, such as being dropped on pavement or concrete following the SAAMI drop test.

5.2.10 Any externally worn items, such as rings, wristbands, or tokens that may be associated with the security device, shall have to meet the same durability requirements as the pistol.

 

[Squire]

Which, of course, contradicts the moonbat's whole smart gun concept.

The moonbats want LEO to carry guns smart enough to only be hot when pointing at White Men.

And citizens to carry guns smart enough to only be hot when pointing at the owner's Redneck Friend.

 

[drgrant]

Which, of course, contradicts the moonbat's whole smart gun concept.

Not really, since most of their braying involves little kids picking up.handguns. i think most of this bullshit revolves around children and dumb cops leaving handguns on toilets, etc.

 

[drgrant]

I don't think you're going to see brute force attacks trying to damage the electronics. You will see people hacking the code in the gun and sending it signals to shut itself down. Search youtube. There's a guy out there that hacked microsoft wireless keyboards and built a device that sent signals to the computer pretending to be the keyboard. He was able to control the computer that way and do pretty much anything he wanted. Let's say that you generated a signal that added a few extra bits so the gun no longer recognized the code being sent by the wristband/ring. Does the gun have a "shut down after so many unsuccessful code inputs?" An electronic device can generate thousands of codes per second. Anything that relies on/allows input from RF is vulnerable.

Software always has bugs/things that can be exploited.

The tinfoiler stuff here is of little concern, it's the very idea itself that is concerning. It perpetuates the nostrum of firearms being extra killy, etc. This shit enables antis by validating their rhetoric.

 

[drgrant]

Never going to happen.
I think you'd see massive walk outs.
No way do they want to be saddled with some buggy POS that's going to cost them their lives.
That's for the rest of us.

They likely will not force it but incrementally introduce it. Incrementalism is the easiest way to get people to do stupid things.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

The only "smart gun" is one that has no electronics, is well broken in and fully loaded on your person.

 

[Dadstoys]

There are some damn smart people out there.
If it's humanly possible to hack it you can bet it's going to happen.

 

[42!]

With the fail-hot requirement how would any system be able to identify the difference between an authentication failure due to a wristband not being within range (gun left unattended), or the wristband transceiver failing so there was no communication...Answer, it can't. This is true for any form of identification, fingerprints, DNA, whatever.

No matter what system you use, a fail-hot will never work. This is an insurmountable, fundamental flaw. An almost simple conflict between the political intent of a "safe gun", and the specification intended to protect lives.

They've made no progress on this in the last 30 years, we'll all be long dead before they can do this reliably.

The whole thing is just throwing government development money at something, anything, so they can claim they are doing something. Our tax dollars hard at work doing nothing.

 

[drgrant]

There are some damn smart people out there.
If it's humanly possible to hack it you can bet it's going to happen.

Of course that sort of thing is possible but that's not the main concern of this idea. The problem with this idea is it has political overtones associated with it that could have far reaching effects...

I can hear it now...

"Why R u so opposed to smart guns? Even the KOPSCH are using them now! If the KOPSCH trust their lives with them, then why can't you, if it means saving one life...."

-Mike

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Not really, since most of their braying involves little kids picking up.handguns. i think most of this bullshit revolves around children and dumb cops leaving handguns on toilets, etc.

No, most of the bullshit is an effort by the antis to appear relevant. They need to get their toe back in the door somehow, so they focus on 'reasonable gun safety' measures like smart guns, universal background checks, etc. It's all based upon what they think will help them win the PR war if not actually get passed into law.

Remember, they just want guns to be safer - just the same way that Texas and Oklahoma legislatures want to protect the safety of women seeking abortions - they make them unobtainable. It's the same playbook.

 

[robjax]

they want to push this through so they can use it as an excuse to force it on civilians.

 

[Lank]

My younger brother is a Fed with the U.S. Department of Courts (DOJ). He is a firearms instructor, Glock armored, and carries a Glock 26 on the job. He informed me that U.S. Probation and the U.S. Marshal's Service plan to keep what they're carrying.

I am a lowly tax payer/citizen. I plan to keep carrying WETFIW....

- - - Updated - - -

No, most of the bullshit is an effort by the antis to appear relevant. They need to get their toe back in the door somehow, so they focus on 'reasonable gun safety' measures like smart guns, universal background checks, etc. It's all based upon what they think will help them win the PR war if not actually get passed into law.

Remember, they just want guns to be safer - just the same way that Texas and Oklahoma legislatures want to protect the safety of women seeking abortions - they make them unobtainable. It's the same playbook.

False equivalency,