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Shooting steel cqb

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Joseph Bonavita, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    Shooting steel up close is dangerous. You can do everything right and splash back can still happen.

    Ok now that i have that out of the way has anyone experimented with any materials over the steel plates to slow down the projectiles. "Craters" are from heat from velocity. Essentially craters are only prevented by slowing down the projectlie. Dents are from energy which could be solved by thicker metal.

    Im totally clueless on where to start but maybe some pine boards over it and hopefully it slows it down but still rings it???? Any ideas from our amatuer enginerrs???
     

  2. edmorseiii

    edmorseiii Navy Veteran NES Member

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    Angle your steel downward and then man up.
     
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  3. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    I guess i should note shooting .223 at 25 yards creates craters in turn creating "channels" therefore angling the plate doesnt matter because of the deformities in the plate. Trying to avoid the craters. Hope that doesnt come off snotty;)
     
  4. cams

    cams NES Member

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    Why would you need or use steel plates for CQB? As opposed to just some plywood and targets? Seems an unnecessary risk.
     
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  5. cams

    cams NES Member

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    Doesn’t come off snotty, to me it comes off as you’re way too smart for your own good and overthinking this. Remember the KISS method. If it works for our warriors it should work just fine for your needs as well.
     
  6. edmorseiii

    edmorseiii Navy Veteran NES Member

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    Yeah, I assumed OP was talking about pistols. "CQB" with a rifle? Just use papper targets, you get to hold yourself to a higher standard that way.
     
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  7. cams

    cams NES Member

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    Hope he’s got stock in Oakley’s and bandages.

    ETA: maybe I’m misunderstanding him, 25yrds is not CBQ in my mind, I’m thinking room clearing with nothing further than 5-10yd hallways and such.
     
  8. Tackdriver

    Tackdriver NES Member

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    Angle the steel downward, good goggles and Frangible 223.

    Dave
     
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  9. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    not sure if this carries over but back in my youth we did a lot of pellet and bb gun shooting. We tried backing the heavy cloth backer with a slopped piece of steel and basically we started getting a lot more bounce backs than just shooting directly at the steel?? Eventually we went back to the thick carb board backers.

    So maybe slowing the the projectile down might not be a good idea. Also at 25 yards whats the point of "ringing" steel at 25 yards in any type of CBQ style training? do you think you will here the ding?
    I would be more concerned with the back stop and whats beyond it than the steel?
     
  10. jpm

    jpm NES Member

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    get some shoot-and-see targets for that distance, you'll see the holes just fine. I would not be using anything more than 223 frangible ammo at that distance against steel (and probably still wouldn't, too close) or better yet, get yourself a .22LR conversion bolt and mag and blast away. You're not cratering steel with that.
     
  11. AMV

    AMV

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    223 on steel at 25 yard is to close..... get yourself a PCC if you want to practice
     
  12. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    Maybe frangible is the only way to go... i was trying to avoid it cuz of the price. Its like double the price of the crap steel case i shoot! Anybody have experience with it? Can i get away with pistol targets you think? Any experiences with frangibles would be appreciated. And yea maybe im wrong calling it cqb. My local range has personal dirt pits. Like horse shoes so im not worried about backstops. .22lr sounds interesting but by the time im done with that i might as well just buy an mp1522.

    Ive got packs of cheap glowshot "shoot and see" targets from amazon. Theyre fun but nothing is more fun then ringing steel!

    Edit
    TRUTH – FRANGIBLE AMMUNITION REQUIRES THE SAME QUALITY STEEL AS REGULAR AMMUNITION
    Many types of frangible ammunition, particularly for rifles, are lighter than regular lead ammunition. Remember that lighter bullets can mean greater speed, which means more heat, which can mean damage to your steel target. Just because frangible ammunition is designed to break up on impact doesn’t mean the distance requirements do not apply. You should follow the exact same rules with frangible ammunition as you do with any other.

    Didnt like what i found.......
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  13. DPR

    DPR NES Member

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    Dude you're shooting a rifle, stop being a pussy and move the steel further out than 25yds.
     
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  14. 45collector

    45collector NES Member

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    I don't do anything up-close with rifles on steel, but with Steel Challenge (centerfire pistol), I'm expecting to get hit with shrapnel coming back at me. It lets me know I'm hitting the plates. ;)
     
  15. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    I have different rifles for different things. I ring steel at 500 yrds with my scoped 6.5 creedmore and 250 yrds with my irons on my sks. I just bought a pre 94 ar to have fun with running around and tapping steel and transitioning to sidearm. It may sound toolbagish but its fun for me. Its a hobby and paper just isnt as satisfying
     
  16. Tackdriver

    Tackdriver NES Member

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  17. edmorseiii

    edmorseiii Navy Veteran NES Member

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    Buy bigger steel plates and shoot them further away if you are this worried about it. I have shot steel with m193 as close as 25 yards, I am still alive.
     
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  18. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    Thats what im talking about! Im going to check them out thanks!
     
  19. xtry51

    xtry51

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    I have shot steel (angled AR500) with both pistol and rifle as close as 5yds with standard ammo. Wear glasses, pants and long sleeves. Expect to feel spall and stop being a pussy.

    Spall is everywhere. There's tons of posts here about people getting hit by jackets at competitions well beyond 25yds. This is completely normal. Just take appropriate PPE steps.

    When you start destroying a target with deep dimples, replace it. Buy high quality targets the thickest you can afford.

    For CQB I would typically use paper targets because shooting too much steel will hurt your shooting accuracy. The goal is to KNOW where the bullet went as soon as you pulled the trigger without feedback. In real life people will not give immediate feedback from most bullet strikes. The bad guy your shooting isn't going to pause to audibly confirm back to you it was a hit.
     
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  20. Nick Fury

    Nick Fury

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  21. FiremanBob

    FiremanBob NES Member

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    The maker of the steel target puts clear information about what kinds of firearms are safe to use at certain minimum distances. Failure to follow the manufacturer's recommendations makes any bad consequence 100% your own fault.
     
  22. 1919FAN

    1919FAN NES Member

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    If you ain't bruising and bleeding your not playing hard enough.
     
  23. cams

    cams NES Member

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    In our old tirehouses on base (live fire and live frags CQB) we would blow up regular small party balloons (maybe just bigger than a fist or so) and staple them to paper targets for more accuracy. One on the chest and one on the head. Simple but gives some immediate feedback while you’re still moving.
     
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  24. edmorseiii

    edmorseiii Navy Veteran NES Member

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    I have thought about doing stuff like using balloons inside boxes that are hanging from a rope tied to the balloon and having weights in the bottom and pasting center mass targets where the balloons are, so that the only way the target drops is with a vitals shot. One of these days when I have time...
     
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  25. cams

    cams NES Member

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    Sure that would work, little complicated to have to keep setting it up over and over for a few hours of solid training.
     
  26. edmorseiii

    edmorseiii Navy Veteran NES Member

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    For sure, at the end of the day, I will just shoot my steel plates. [laugh]
     
  27. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

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    This. Shooting steel is fun but you definitely should make sure to throw some paper targets into the mix.
     
  28. andrew1220

    andrew1220 NES Member

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    I'd buy one of these 45 degree targets from Action Target to try to lower the amount of spall/ricochets etc. It's the only target they make that can handle rifle calibers at 50 yards instead of 100 yards.
    Action Target : 45 Degree Static
     
  29. KMM696

    KMM696 NES Member

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    Experimented with a rubber/polymer/whatever steel target cover about 1.5" thick that was advertised as stopping spall. It did, but keeping it attached to the steel wasn't easy. It was suggested that it be glued to the steel with spray adhesive, which worked for a while. As bullets and jackets built up between the steel and the polymer it would separate them relatively quickly, requiring them to be separated completely and reglued. Then tried wrapping glued assembly with duct tape, which held out longer but not long enough. In the end our conclusion was that it did work, but was taking a lot more time to maintain the spall blocker than it would to run paper and bare steel and none of us were that concerned about the effects of target spall.
     
  30. Joseph Bonavita

    Joseph Bonavita NES Member

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    Thank u for your reply. INTERESTING! Did the targwt still ring when hit?
     

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