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Shooting steel cqb

J

Joseph Bonavita

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Shooting steel up close is dangerous. You can do everything right and splash back can still happen.

Ok now that i have that out of the way has anyone experimented with any materials over the steel plates to slow down the projectiles. "Craters" are from heat from velocity. Essentially craters are only prevented by slowing down the projectlie. Dents are from energy which could be solved by thicker metal.

Im totally clueless on where to start but maybe some pine boards over it and hopefully it slows it down but still rings it???? Any ideas from our amatuer enginerrs???
 
I guess i should note shooting .223 at 25 yards creates craters in turn creating "channels" therefore angling the plate doesnt matter because of the deformities in the plate. Trying to avoid the craters. Hope that doesnt come off snotty;)
 
Joseph Bonavita said:
I guess i should note shooting .223 at 25 yards creates craters in turn creating "channels" therefore angling the plate doesnt matter because of the deformities in the plate. Trying to avoid the craters. Hope that doesnt come off snotty;)
Click to expand...

Doesn’t come off snotty, to me it comes off as you’re way too smart for your own good and overthinking this. Remember the KISS method. If it works for our warriors it should work just fine for your needs as well.
 
cams said:
Why would you need or use steel plates for CQB? As opposed to just some plywood and targets? Seems an unnecessary risk.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I assumed OP was talking about pistols. "CQB" with a rifle? Just use papper targets, you get to hold yourself to a higher standard that way.
 
edmorseiii said:
Yeah, I assumed OP was talking about pistols. "CQB" with a rifle? Just use papper targets, you get to hold yourself to a higher standard that way.
Click to expand...

Hope he’s got stock in Oakley’s and bandages.

ETA: maybe I’m misunderstanding him, 25yrds is not CBQ in my mind, I’m thinking room clearing with nothing further than 5-10yd hallways and such.
 
Joseph Bonavita said:
Shooting steel up close is dangerous. You can do everything right and splash back can still happen.

Ok now that i have that out of the way has anyone experimented with any materials over the steel plates to slow down the projectiles. "Craters" are from heat from velocity. Essentially craters are only prevented by slowing down the projectlie. Dents are from energy which could be solved by thicker metal.

Im totally clueless on where to start but maybe some pine boards over it and hopefully it slows it down but still rings it???? Any ideas from our amatuer enginerrs???
Click to expand...
not sure if this carries over but back in my youth we did a lot of pellet and bb gun shooting. We tried backing the heavy cloth backer with a slopped piece of steel and basically we started getting a lot more bounce backs than just shooting directly at the steel?? Eventually we went back to the thick carb board backers.

So maybe slowing the the projectile down might not be a good idea. Also at 25 yards whats the point of "ringing" steel at 25 yards in any type of CBQ style training? do you think you will here the ding?
I would be more concerned with the back stop and whats beyond it than the steel?
 
get some shoot-and-see targets for that distance, you'll see the holes just fine. I would not be using anything more than 223 frangible ammo at that distance against steel (and probably still wouldn't, too close) or better yet, get yourself a .22LR conversion bolt and mag and blast away. You're not cratering steel with that.
 
223 on steel at 25 yard is to close..... get yourself a PCC if you want to practice
 
Maybe frangible is the only way to go... i was trying to avoid it cuz of the price. Its like double the price of the crap steel case i shoot! Anybody have experience with it? Can i get away with pistol targets you think? Any experiences with frangibles would be appreciated. And yea maybe im wrong calling it cqb. My local range has personal dirt pits. Like horse shoes so im not worried about backstops. .22lr sounds interesting but by the time im done with that i might as well just buy an mp1522.

Ive got packs of cheap glowshot "shoot and see" targets from amazon. Theyre fun but nothing is more fun then ringing steel!

Edit
TRUTH – FRANGIBLE AMMUNITION REQUIRES THE SAME QUALITY STEEL AS REGULAR AMMUNITION
Many types of frangible ammunition, particularly for rifles, are lighter than regular lead ammunition. Remember that lighter bullets can mean greater speed, which means more heat, which can mean damage to your steel target. Just because frangible ammunition is designed to break up on impact doesn’t mean the distance requirements do not apply. You should follow the exact same rules with frangible ammunition as you do with any other.

Didnt like what i found.......
 
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I don't do anything up-close with rifles on steel, but with Steel Challenge (centerfire pistol), I'm expecting to get hit with shrapnel coming back at me. It lets me know I'm hitting the plates. ;)
 
I have different rifles for different things. I ring steel at 500 yrds with my scoped 6.5 creedmore and 250 yrds with my irons on my sks. I just bought a pre 94 ar to have fun with running around and tapping steel and transitioning to sidearm. It may sound toolbagish but its fun for me. Its a hobby and paper just isnt as satisfying
 
I have shot steel (angled AR500) with both pistol and rifle as close as 5yds with standard ammo. Wear glasses, pants and long sleeves. Expect to feel spall and stop being a pussy.

Spall is everywhere. There's tons of posts here about people getting hit by jackets at competitions well beyond 25yds. This is completely normal. Just take appropriate PPE steps.

When you start destroying a target with deep dimples, replace it. Buy high quality targets the thickest you can afford.

For CQB I would typically use paper targets because shooting too much steel will hurt your shooting accuracy. The goal is to KNOW where the bullet went as soon as you pulled the trigger without feedback. In real life people will not give immediate feedback from most bullet strikes. The bad guy your shooting isn't going to pause to audibly confirm back to you it was a hit.
 
The maker of the steel target puts clear information about what kinds of firearms are safe to use at certain minimum distances. Failure to follow the manufacturer's recommendations makes any bad consequence 100% your own fault.
 
In our old tirehouses on base (live fire and live frags CQB) we would blow up regular small party balloons (maybe just bigger than a fist or so) and staple them to paper targets for more accuracy. One on the chest and one on the head. Simple but gives some immediate feedback while you’re still moving.
 
cams said:
In our old tirehouses on base (live fire and live frags CQB) we would blow up regular small party balloons (maybe just bigger than a fist or so) and staple them to paper targets for more accuracy. One on the chest and one on the head. Simple but gives some immediate feedback while you’re still moving.
Click to expand...

I have thought about doing stuff like using balloons inside boxes that are hanging from a rope tied to the balloon and having weights in the bottom and pasting center mass targets where the balloons are, so that the only way the target drops is with a vitals shot. One of these days when I have time...
 
edmorseiii said:
I have thought about doing stuff like using balloons inside boxes that are hanging from a rope tied to the balloon and having weights in the bottom and pasting center mass targets where the balloons are, so that the only way the target drops is with a vitals shot. One of these days when I have time...
Click to expand...

Sure that would work, little complicated to have to keep setting it up over and over for a few hours of solid training.
 
xtry51 said:
For CQB I would typically use paper targets because shooting too much steel will hurt your shooting accuracy. The goal is to KNOW where the bullet went as soon as you pulled the trigger without feedback. In real life people will not give immediate feedback from most bullet strikes. The bad guy your shooting isn't going to pause to audibly confirm back to you it was a hit.
Click to expand...
This. Shooting steel is fun but you definitely should make sure to throw some paper targets into the mix.
 
I'd buy one of these 45 degree targets from Action Target to try to lower the amount of spall/ricochets etc. It's the only target they make that can handle rifle calibers at 50 yards instead of 100 yards.
Action Target : 45 Degree Static
 
Experimented with a rubber/polymer/whatever steel target cover about 1.5" thick that was advertised as stopping spall. It did, but keeping it attached to the steel wasn't easy. It was suggested that it be glued to the steel with spray adhesive, which worked for a while. As bullets and jackets built up between the steel and the polymer it would separate them relatively quickly, requiring them to be separated completely and reglued. Then tried wrapping glued assembly with duct tape, which held out longer but not long enough. In the end our conclusion was that it did work, but was taking a lot more time to maintain the spall blocker than it would to run paper and bare steel and none of us were that concerned about the effects of target spall.
 

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