I recently got my LTC Class A High Capacity license. I knew from my class that high capacity was 15 rounds magazines, but had to be pre-ban. Excited to get my first handgun, I went to a few different local gun shops to look for a high capacity used gun in like new condition. I found a used Glock 23 with two 13 round magazines LNIB for a very hefty price. I bought the gun as a carry piece and have been very happy with my purchase..... until this past week when I joined NES. After reading threads about high capacity magazines, pre-ban post-ban, I started to think about my two 13rd mags and if they were actually pre-ban. Seeing pictures of pre/post-ban magazines it became more apparent that these were most likely post-ban, they had the small rectangular cut out. I called a couple different shops to ask what they knew about the magazines and some said there is no way to prove if it is pre/post so I shouldn't worry about it. Well I was worried about it because it's a felony to possess these. I went to saw another dealer that is a former Police Capt. of a friend of mine who I felt wouldn't steer me wrong and he agreed these were most likely post-ban and if the SHTF it's my butt on the line going to jail. So the point to my story is Shame on me for not researching this area more before I bought the gun and Shame on that dealer for selling me something that could possibly put me in jail just for possessing them. I did just trade one out for a 10rd and the other is gone if I knew I would end up with just 10rds I would have just bought a Glock 27 with the +1 grip since this is a carry piece. Bottom line don't trust what a dealer says he most likey just wants to make a sale, research everything and make a more educated decision because its your butt on the line.
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Shame on me..Shame on Them
- Thread starter 705squat
- Start date
705, glad you are catching up, but another finer point for you...
An LTC-A (High capacity) allows you to have "high capacity" mags which are defined as "10 rounds or more" IIRC. Not "15, but only pre-ban"...
The AWB (separate from the LTC-A) bans everything as of the cut-off date which is more than 10 rounds....
11,12,13, and so on must be pre-ban...
If it is pre-ban, then the sky is the limit (so long as you have an LTC-A with no restrictions to the contrary)
100 round drum made in 1990? Have fun! 15rd glock mag made pre-ban? Go for it! (so long as you can verify)....
An LTC-A (High capacity) allows you to have "high capacity" mags which are defined as "10 rounds or more" IIRC. Not "15, but only pre-ban"...
The AWB (separate from the LTC-A) bans everything as of the cut-off date which is more than 10 rounds....
11,12,13, and so on must be pre-ban...
If it is pre-ban, then the sky is the limit (so long as you have an LTC-A with no restrictions to the contrary)
100 round drum made in 1990? Have fun! 15rd glock mag made pre-ban? Go for it! (so long as you can verify)....
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I say more shame on the dealer. I would say very few LTC holders would know a preban from a post ban mag. A customer shouldnt have to worry about a dealer handing them a felony.
You have to take advice given here with a grain of salt. Some people know what they are talking about, some want you to think they do, and others just like to talk like they know everything regardless of the subject. According to some pics, and posts here, I have post ban hi-cap mags as well, but I don't.. ![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Agreed - no ethical person should ever knowingly put someone in that position... I won't do business with people that would...
Incompetence is incompetence, but...
Many of the laws put all the burden on them as the only party of the transaction who is regulated (i.e. guns not on Martha's list), but this one is literally handing you a felony which is inexcusable...
Just goes to demonstrate once again that dealers, PD's, and AGs cannot figure out the law any better than the rest of us...
PM sent.
The u shape is definitely preban, the rectangular might be pre, or post ban..
The ban happened right in the middle of a generation change.. Determining if it is pre or post ban has to do with the caliber stampings on the magazine itself.
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rectangular cut out does necessarily mean post ban.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12516450#post12516450
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12516450#post12516450
You have to take advice given here with a grain of salt. Some people know what they are talking about, some want you to think they do, and others just like to talk like they know everything regardless of the subject. According to some pics, and posts here, I have post ban hi-cap mags as well, but I don't..
So much truth from this young lady's keyboard!!
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
The felony falls on BOTH dealer and possessor in this case. Problem is it becomes a "he said, she said" deal wrt dealer and the hi-cap post-ban mags. Since anyone can swap out mags, if the dealer says "no, I sold the gun with pre-ban or 10-rd mags" the only thing that the DA can "go to the bank with" is the person left holding the illegal mags.
Normal gun purchase receipts don't list the pedigree of the mags or even how many were sold with the gun. Not to say that you can't request them to put it on the receipt, just that it's not normally done.
The front cut-out in a Glock mag (called the ambi cut-out) was only done when the first "SF" model gun was due to hit the market (a few years ago), so no hi-caps with that cut-out can possibly be pre-ban unless the owner manually did the cut-out with a Dremel tool (or similar device).
We need to be careful of terminology now on these. I know what you mean, but others might not.
Rectangular cut-out (plastic) in FRONT of mag means post-ban.
The shape of the rear metal cut-out is a topic up for grabs. See long dissertation on that elsewhere on NES and Patrick Sweeney's books on the Glock for confirmation of the fuzziness here.
Not entirely true. See Sweeney's book wrt this, referenced above.
At the Amorers course this summer the instructor said the only way to know is the caliber stamping on the rear of the magazine. It was never lowered after the Gov/LE stamp was removed.
True, BUT it was Raised BEFORE 9/13/1994. Thus the confusion. Some quantity of pre-ban mags were mfd with the higher caliber marking. See Sweeney's book (my copy was written BEFORE the Fed Ban expired) and locally talk with Matt (mgr) of AFS who owns a Glock with mags (bought during Fed Ban) that also prove this out.
You are trying to apply logic and reason to a situation which has none...
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I don't have my original source for this at hand, but according to Glock's legal department, neither the shape or the notch nor the positioning of the caliber stamp provide reliable proof of whether the magazine is pre-ban or not. I know that Talmudic discussions on "how to tell pre from post" will probably never cease, this is Glock's official position on the topic.
Ken
Ken
I would think if a case ever goes to trial the manufactuer would be asked which of their products were manufatured prior to the federal ban. Acording to Glock the answer is, the ones with the caliber stamp in the original position.
I'd assume that's what their lawyers would say as well as a 3rd party to a case... If they have a plausible case for making the claim that there is no reliable physical indicator nor documentation to prove it - why expose yourself to liability one way or the other as a 3rd party?
If you call Glock and ask them how you can tell a pre-ban mag from a post-ban mag, they will tell you that it is impossible to tell them apart, with the exception of the ambi cut out. The ambi cut out was introduced post ban.
Glock will say that there are no "generations" of magazines since they continually changed designs and parts even DURING a "generation". (ie: magazines presumed to be within the same generation can have different parts and design adjustments)
If your magazine does not have the ambi cut out, then Glock says that there is NO WAY for them to tell if one magazine is post or pre ban. Glock will even put this in writing for you. Supposedly, there are people who have inquired with Glock about this issue and have received letters from Glock stating the above.
I am not a lawyer. But this is my understanding of the issue.
Glock will say that there are no "generations" of magazines since they continually changed designs and parts even DURING a "generation". (ie: magazines presumed to be within the same generation can have different parts and design adjustments)
If your magazine does not have the ambi cut out, then Glock says that there is NO WAY for them to tell if one magazine is post or pre ban. Glock will even put this in writing for you. Supposedly, there are people who have inquired with Glock about this issue and have received letters from Glock stating the above.
I am not a lawyer. But this is my understanding of the issue.
Jesus. Massachusetts is f**king retarded. I understand WHY you have to play CSI here to determine when your magazines were manufactured, but Jesus, seriously, reading this thread makes my head hurt. Intelligent people reduced to blithering idiots attempting to follow some obscene, obscure, ridiculous law.
wow im going to have to recheck mine![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
lol.. i bet you're ok, and for every person who tells you they are pre ban, 10 more will tell you they're post..
Affirmative...
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