SBR lower question

[jhagberg88]

do SBR's have to be built on preban lowers?

Jason

 

[xtry51]

No. The SBR portion is federal and has nothing to do with your state's AWB.

 

[Mass-diver]

do SBR's have to be built on preban lowers?

Jason

It's controversial, actually.

 

[wacky_doug]

Here's the debate: SBR with collapsing or foldable stock OR bayo lug OR flash hider and you're into AWB territory. SBR with a fixed stock and none of this stuff and it doesn't fall into AWB category.

The debate is whether the SBR tax stamp somehow overrides the MA AWB.

 

[jhagberg88]

what about fixed stock and a muzzle break/compensator?

 

[Mass-diver]

what about fixed stock and a muzzle break/compensator?

That's certainly fine, but an sbr with a fixed stock is pretty lame in my book.

When I decided to go the sbr route, I just took the hit and spent a couple hundred bucks more on the lower to be safe, but this is a gray area, so it depends on how risk adverse you are......

ETA: I assume you're in MA? apologies if you are not

 

[jhagberg88]

yes i am, ive shot M4/AR platforms with the stock in the same position since i joined the military so its not like i would really move it.

question branching off from this one....if I buy a pre ban lower how can i get both to actually match together...does it have to be all rebelled/parkerized?

 

[Mass-diver]

yes i am, ive shot M4/AR platforms with the stock in the same position since i joined the military so its not like i would really move it.

question branching off from this one....if I buy a pre ban lower how can i get both to actually match together...does it have to be all rebelled/parkerized?

You can get it refinished (cerakote is awesome) most people don't care if the finish is a little different.

 

[jhagberg88]

ive looked into cerakote, it looks pretty awesome.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Here's the debate: SBR with collapsing or foldable stock OR bayo lug OR flash hider and you're into AWB territory. SBR with a fixed stock and none of this stuff and it doesn't fall into AWB category.

The debate is whether the SBR tax stamp somehow overrides the MA AWB.

I am NOT an expert on NFA issues, but can tell you that the current thinking in MA gov't circles is that the Fed Tax Stamp does NOT override the MA AWB.

Also note that in the absence of any case law one way or the other, the Fed AWB REQUIRED that the "pre-ban lower" had been either kitted or assembled in AWB-configuration on/prior to the magic date in order to qualify for "pre-ban status". IANAL but would expect MA courts to use that info in any prosecution. So using a pre-ban lower (with no knowledge of the status I mentioned here) is indeed a very gray area.

 

[Pete G]

I am NOT an expert on NFA issues, but can tell you that the current thinking in MA gov't circles is that the Fed Tax Stamp does NOT override the MA AWB.

Also note that in the absence of any case law one way or the other, the Fed AWB REQUIRED that the "pre-ban lower" had been either kitted or assembled in AWB-configuration on/prior to the magic date in order to qualify for "pre-ban status". IANAL but would expect MA courts to use that info in any prosecution. So using a pre-ban lower (with no knowledge of the status I mentioned here) is indeed a very gray area.

I've wondered about this. Say you have a pre-ban rifle with the collapsing stock and flash hider, but it's barrel length is > 16''. If you get a tax stamp and SBR upper have you now screwed yourself because it is not in the same configuration as it was, or does it not matter since you have not added any "evil features" to it, and the lower (which you have not changed) is the only part that is defined as a firearm anyway?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Once a gun is legitimately declared "pre-ban", what you do after that should NOT adversely affect it's pre-ban status.

 

[wacky_doug]

I am NOT an expert on NFA issues, but can tell you that the current thinking in MA gov't circles is that the Fed Tax Stamp does NOT override the MA AWB.

Also note that in the absence of any case law one way or the other, the Fed AWB REQUIRED that the "pre-ban lower" had been either kitted or assembled in AWB-configuration on/prior to the magic date in order to qualify for "pre-ban status". IANAL but would expect MA courts to use that info in any prosecution. So using a pre-ban lower (with no knowledge of the status I mentioned here) is indeed a very gray area.

I tend to err on the conservative side with stuff like this, so I agree.

As with owning magazines of "questionable vintage", the most likely cause for the average person to get jammed up is a confiscation event (perhaps from a restraining order.)

 

[crazymjb]

If I went through the SBR process, personally I would not be too concerned with throwing a collapsible stock on and not pinning the muzzle break myself, but that's on the end user I suppose. MA decided to define a rifle as having a barrel length of equal to or greater than 16 inches, the SBR would not, so it would not be a rifle and therefore I could argue not an assault weapon. Perhaps the law purposely is written this way as to make exceptions for those who go through the NFA process...

Your thoughts and mileage may vary. I'd certainly carry around the highlighted law printout with my NFA paperwork though.

Mike

 

[wacky_doug]

Mike: thanks for posting that. I've never heard the justification offered for the debate. For the benefit of others, I'm posted the relevant sections.

My problem/confusion with this MA-level justification is that one could also argue that making an SBR during the federal AWB was a way around the AWB. Was that true back in the day? The federal AWB language defined "rifle" and "short barreled rifle" separately, much like MA defines "rifle" and "firearm" (meaning "handgun") separately. And the federal and MA "assault weapon" definitions definitely say "rifle" and "shotgun" not "short barreled rifle".

Anyway, this is above my pay grade. Need a lawyer to interpret this....

MA's rifle definition (see http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121):

“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet for each pull of the trigger.

The MA "assault weapon" definition then references: 18 USC 921(a)(30):

The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means - (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as - (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; (vii) Steyr AUG; (viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (v) a grenade launcher; (C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; (iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-definitions-19190862

 

[crazymjb]

Its "a" justification. There is no unilateral consensus.

Mike

 

[11bway2b]

I just don't think its wise to say a SBR does not fall under the AWB. Remember, this is Massachusetts, and that they will probably decide that you are wrong if you believe a SBR does not fall under the AWB. I just built my SBR and pinned the stock where I want it, and used a brake that looks just like a A2 hider. Works absolutely fine for me.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I can tell you that currently those in power think that an SBR is NOT a rifle and is thus a FIREARM (handgun) when it comes to the AWB. So if features/weight put it over the line, their thinking is that it is an AW and thus pre-ban status is necessary to be legal.

I don't have a dog in this fight and am NOT offering my opinion above,.

 

[crazymjb]

So by that logic wouldn't every SBR have to be preban, considering every AR, even SBRs, will crush that 50 ounce weight limit?

An SBR is by definition a rifle, however the Massachusetts definition of rifle which they use in their assault weapon ban is not satisfied by SBRs. Enough to say it is not a pistol, but not a rifle by Massachusetts standards when considering it for AW status.

The whole thing can best be described as a MFAF but I highly doubt they are going to waste their time trying to burn someone for possession of an assault rifle configured SBR if the person has all their SBR ducks in a row, considering they don't really bother to prosecute the whole AW ban thing in the first place unless its in conjunction with something else. I personally would not be all too worried if I had an SBR with all the NFA stuff done correctly, that was configured with "evil features," but that is on the individual.

Mike

 

[Kevlar]

I can tell you that currently those in power think that an SBR is NOT a rifle and is thus a FIREARM (handgun) when it comes to the AWB. So if features/weight put it over the line, their thinking is that it is an AW and thus pre-ban status is necessary to be legal.

Unfortunately, that interpretation may be legally correct, based on the definition of a "firearm"...

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured;

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121