restoration of guns after a house fire

[fortitude42]

the area around the receiver and barrel had not burned. I know at some points in the room the temperatures had gotten high, so i made a conservative estimate. The plastic case that it was in had melted completely, and if it helps, the wood was from 1945 and penetrated with cosmoline (it was a cmp garand) A picture would be worth a thousand words if i had one, so no need to apologize for asking questions as i know you all are trying to help, and i greatly appreciate it.

 

[Busa]

From the sounds of it I would think this rifle would be fine. I personally would shoot it but thats just me.

 

[flintoid]

well, if the case was made out of ABS, and that it had melted, it definitely reached 220 F. If it had melted around the gun, it's safe to assume that the gun was saturated with that level of heat.

ABS auto ignites at 800-875 F. So you know the rifles didn't get THAT hot.

Given the nature of the wood (charred) and some of it had burned.... it means that some of that wood hit 570 F AND had oxygen to fuel it. The other wood charred, which means it could have been equally as hot, but smothered by the plastic. Was this case wrapped around the gun like it had been dipped in a molten pool of plastic, or did it generally maintain it's case shape?

Either way- you know that case didn't hit 900 F. If it had, it would have been a blackened pile of charred plastic... assuming it's plastic.

 

[MrScrewzloose]

well, if the case was made out of ABS, and that it had melted, it definitely reached 220 F. If it had melted around the gun, it's safe to assume that the gun was saturated with that level of heat.

ABS auto ignites at 800-875 F. So you know the rifles didn't get THAT hot.

Given the nature of the wood (charred) and some of it had burned.... it means that some of that wood hit 570 F AND had oxygen to fuel it. The other wood charred, which means it could have been equally as hot, but smothered by the plastic. Was this case wrapped around the gun like it had been dipped in a molten pool of plastic, or did it generally maintain it's case shape?

Either way- you know that case didn't hit 900 F. If it had, it would have been a blackened pile of charred plastic... assuming it's plastic.

This is why I love NES, folks come out slamming facts on the table. Of which I cut & paste into my little binder of e-notes. Who needs a formal education?

 

[TomH]

The problem with only hardness testing is it only tells you what's going on at the surface. When you treat metal in industry, you have a record of what temps the furnace hit, and for how long, so you know the properties you are looking for will happen. You can't get that level of verification without slicing, etching, and examining the grain structure of the steel (basically destructive testing). A garand will have forged parts that could be affected in other ways as well.

 

[flintoid]

The problem with only hardness testing is it only tells you what's going on at the surface. When you treat metal in industry, you have a record of what temps the furnace hit, and for how long, so you know the properties you are looking for will happen. You can't get that level of verification without slicing, etching, and examining the grain structure of the steel (basically destructive testing). A garand will have forged parts that could be affected in other ways as well.

this is true. However- the most susceptible part of this firearm to material property changes is the surface of the steel. If you have wonky stuff happening on the surface, then you know part of it has been effected negatively by the heat.

If you are trying to say that the inner cross sections of the steel can be negatively effected, which would require a good level of heat soak, while leaving the outside surface un-affected, you're going to have to paint me a picture and give a lecture as to how this could possibly happen. Because I'm drawing blanks here.

The hardness test is a litmus test. Cross sectioning the material, polishing it, and magnifying it is analysis.

 

[fortitude42]

Was this case wrapped around the gun like it had been dipped in a molten pool of plastic, or did it generally maintain it's case shape?

Either way- you know that case didn't hit 900 F. If it had, it would have been a blackened pile of charred plastic... assuming it's plastic.

The case did not maintain its shape at all, it was pretty much molten. The firefighters/fire Marshall had taken it out before i had gotten there, and what was left of the case had conformed to the barrel starting from the muzzle and reaching back toward the chamber end about a foot. I took that part of the case off when i started to go through and clean what was left.

There were some other guns in the opposite (hotter) corner of the room that were almost unrecognizable had it not been for the receivers being intact and connected to a warped barrel. but i think they had knocked the majority of the fire down before it had gotten nearly that hot on the side of the room where the garand, k31, and mosin were



There is a phenomenal amount of information here. and its great to see the community (local and NES) come together to help me an my wife.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I say, restock it and shoot it. but thats just me.

From all info so far, sounds like it was in a case, the case was standing vertical and the gun was upsidedown inside with the butt closer to the vertical center of the room. The fire banked down, burned the end of the case and the butt end of the rifle inside and left a light char futher down the stock to the grip. Sounds like very little if any of the metal of the gun was exposed to significant high temps. I may be completely wrong but I've seen the insides of many burned rooms/contents and lots of things on the floors were still quite serviceable. My guess is that this rifle is also.

The temp difference in the room could very well have been several hundred degrees different from midway up to the floor.

EDIT to add, just because the case plastic ablated and formed to the contents of the case(the rifle), it still provided alot of insulation to the contents if the plastic didn't actually ignite.

 

[flintoid]

EDIT to add, just because the case plastic ablated and formed to the contents of the case(the rifle), it still provided alot of insulation to the contents if the plastic didn't actually ignite.

true.

The only thing you can conclude from it is that the metal was exposed to 220 F. Maybe more, maybe exactly that. And it didn't hit 850 F.

Given that the wood didn't cook, and that there probably was oxygen near it, it might be almost safe to say it didn't hit 570 F.

and as was stated earlier, the springs appear to be working, which take much less heat soak to change material properties. Much less mass to heat up. And springs become ductile (and sometime brittle if hot enough) when they get heated to the point of annealing.

 

[EC1]

So the wood around the receiver and barrel had not burned, correct? Just at the base of the stock. Did the plastic case burn? Or just melt? I'm guessing it was either polypropylene or ABS of some sort?

Any evidence of other things burning around the rifle? I apologize about the questions- I'm just trying to get a better idea as to the state of the gun. If the fire didn't burn around the steel, then it didn't get as hot as 900 F. Wood ignites at 572. If it didn't burn, it didn't get that hot. And if it didn't get that hot and the fire burned for only minutes (not hours or half hours) the steel has a chance of being fine.

I can't tell you for sure, though. And I won't. Because there is only estimations at this point until you get the metal tested.

It is possible that the temperature was lower than the auto-ignition temperature of wood as what may have ignited was the oil from the finish or simply gun oil soaked into the stock. Short term exposure to high temperature might not be a problem either, anyone have an idea how hot a barrel/receiver would get with sustained firing? Maybe not red heat but certainly hot.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

It is possible that the temperature was lower than the auto-ignition temperature of wood as what may have ignited was the oil from the finish or simply gun oil soaked into the stock. Short term exposure to high temperature might not be a problem either, anyone have an idea how hot a barrel/receiver would get with sustained firing? Maybe not red heat but certainly hot.

I've fired a gun until the wood handguards were smoldering/burning and yes under sustained fire they will get red hot, visible in daylight.

While in the service, we shot out several M2 .50bmg barrels, feeding 800rd belts through them until the spades could be released and the gun was operating in full cook off mode. The barrels were actually red hot and sagging and the tracers were wobbling up and down like a signwave down range a thousand meters. I'd seen this before in old aircraft footage, witnessed it firsthand on the range that day.

The armorer wasn't happy.

Thats what happens when enough ammo is dropped off (pallets of it) for 50 APCs to shoot and only 9 show up to the range.

 

[fortitude42]

Short term exposure to high temperature might not be a problem either, anyone have an idea how hot a barrel/receiver would get with sustained firing? Maybe not red heat but certainly hot.

You know, things like this tend to slip my mind (as i find my mind has been elsewhere the past week) and i guess my main concern was that it is an old rifle, however it is built like a tank and mainly steel construction, but i didn't consider how hot the barrel may get in sustained firing, because i can't reload the clips that fast. The receiver may be a different story, but i will leave that to someone with much more knowledge than I to answer that

 

[flintoid]

I have also fired a gun that boiled water off of it when I dipped it in a bucket of water. No big deal.

I have also lit a AK on fire with diesel fuel and a gas torch to give it a "been there, done that" look. Granted, I only let it burn for a few minutes, but it's still running great.

 

[fortitude42]

Well the K31 and mosin were in somewhat similar condition. I ruled them out at first because they are fairly cheap to replace, and i don't reload for them so they (especially the K31 with GP-11) are firing full power loads. Maybe i can take those back into consideration as well. But i would have to find a new stock for both of them on the cheap to make it worth buying over a whole other rifle

 

[NewGunGuy]

I know a new stock for sure, and plan for at least a new barrel.


The wood had burned on the butt end of the stock, and was charred up to the pistol grip area. I dont have pictures of the stock unfortunately because i had taken it off to clean the rifle, and it had been disposed of later due to the smell. It would be awhile before i can shoot it again, as my reloading presses were lost too with all my components and a whole bunch of ammo. But i always loaded the Garand very light, and she always shot beautifully.

We didn't have renters insurance because we are pretty young and naive (took out a policy yesterday to learn from my mistake) It was the landlords fault, due to his negligence, but he was also negligent in paying his mortgage as well as his liability insurance so we are SOL as far as that goes

Well man if I get the luck of winning any of the recent reloading Karma stuff it will be as good as yours from me. You could definitely use and need more than me right now man. Stay strong and keep your heads up.

Charles.

 

[fortitude42]

Well man if I get the luck of winning any of the recent reloading Karma stuff it will be as good as yours from me. You could definitely use and need more than me right now man. Stay strong and keep your heads up.

Charles.

This is the greatest board with the most thoughtful people. Not to hijack off topic, or turn it into a sob story, but the correspondence and thoughtfulness of everyone so far truly shows the how kindhearted its members are. I guess i have a lot of growing up to do, because i hadn't seen it before; but In a world where all they decide to put on the news and in the media is of tragedies, crime, and tyrants there sure are a lot of compassionate people. Thank you all again.

 

[Livefreeormass]

Very sorry for your loss. Glad that you and your wife were safe. While I can't contribute new information on your question, I've helped a friend clean up after his house fire, in a winter time like this. It was very hectic, cold and smelly too. Be strong and best of luck!

 

[durmax]

I am so sorry to hear about your dog. They can be family and honestly I think more of dogs than some of the people I meet. As far as your M1 the fact that the gun case melted around it could be ok. 1st it was probably poly propylene. That has a melt temp of around 420* to 440* above this it will burn. Most other grades of plastic it could have been made of are within this range, anything getting over 470 would burn. I’ve worked in plastics for some time. When you say the case melted did it droop in to the shape of the gun or was there evidence of dripping plastic kind of like a candle? But as has been said the gun needs to go to a gun smith. They might know of a machine shop around who could do the testing. But the fact the plastic case did not burn is a good thing. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[durmax]

BY the way I forgot to mention M1a sites that might have good ideas as well

 

[Sniper (+)]

File an insurance claim to buy new ones, take old ones to the nearest buyback and make them waste their money. Thats what I'd do.

 

[Gazz]

I have several guns that were in a house fire that I shoot. One is bolt action 30-06 that the stock was quite charred on. It still would cock and fire though so the firing pin spring was okay. I got a new stock for it and have shot several hundred rounds through and even a couple of deer with it. Another is a semi auto in 7.62X39 that had a plastic thumbhole stock that melted into a big mess. It needed a new bolt spring and of course a stock and that probably has a thousand rounds or more through it. Another is a 30-30 lever gun that had the forend burned off and needed a new magazine spring. I haven't shot that one much (50-60 rounds) but it seems to be just fine. There is also a .45 Colt lever gun that needed a new forend, magazine spring and mag follower which was plastic and had melted into the action. After cleaning the plastic out and replacing the messed up parts, it shoots great.
Fortunately, if a firearm is damaged in a fire it would most likely just become soft. So shooting it would cause it's headspace to increase slowly alerting you to a serious problem ahead. I doubt they would blow up immediately since the steels would had to have become hardened and brittle - like red hot and then quenched thoroughly.

 

[fortitude42]

Fortunately, if a firearm is damaged in a fire it would most likely just become soft. So shooting it would cause it's headspace to increase slowly alerting you to a serious problem ahead.

well i can pick up so new gauges and keep an eye on it. based on everyones responsed i think im going to find someone that can do a rockwell hardness test on the barrels and receivers, then if everything checks out to how the guns were origionally tempered with, ill go agead and test fire them from a safe distance, with adequate protection. Thanks again.
-Greg