Questions on acquiring guns

[Becka]

So I have two different situations here. I ask because I don't know, so that I may learn.
My dad had an FID card back in the day that said it wouldn't expire. I learned from Scouter-Rick that they did expire, and when I told my dad it upset him because he thought he was covered. He owns a rifle. I have told him to just apply for his class A (since he lives in Waltham we know it'll be restricted, but it's the same cost so why not go for his class A?).
Anyway - say he chooses not to. How do we go about legally transferring ownership of the rifle to me?

Next - my brother, and one of my best friends live in NH. I have done some shooting in my brothers back yard with his guns, and my friends brother works at SIG and can bring guests to the range.
I know I can't buy a handgun in NH and just bring it back here. However, can I buy a gun in NH if I leave it in NH (say in a locked box in my brothers gun safe) or am I not allowed to purchase a handgun in NH at all? And my friends brother who works at SIG can buy 4 guns a year with a discount - if he'd be willing to buy one for me, how would I go about being able to bring it into MA? Would he buy it and then I'd have him ship it to a dealer here?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

[M1911]

So I have two different situations here. I ask because I don't know, so that I may learn.
My dad had an FID card back in the day that said it wouldn't expire. I learned from Scouter-Rick that they did expire, and when I told my dad it upset him because he thought he was covered. He owns a rifle. I have told him to just apply for his class A (since he lives in Waltham we know it'll be restricted, but it's the same cost so why not go for his class A?).
Anyway - say he chooses not to. How do we go about legally transferring ownership of the rifle to me?

Go to his house, take him and his rifle to a dealer. Have the FFL do the transfer. Cost will be minimal.

I know I can't buy a handgun in NH and just bring it back here. However, can I buy a gun in NH if I leave it in NH (say in a locked box in my brothers gun safe) or am I not allowed to purchase a handgun in NH at all?

You could buy a handgun from an FFL in NH, but he would have to ship the handgun to an FFL in MA, who would then transfer the gun to you. The handgun would have to be compliant with the EOPS roster and pass muster with the AG as well, or the MA FFL won't transfer it to you. No, you can't buy a handgun from an FFL in NH, take possession of it, and simply keep it in NH -- the handgun must be transferred through a MA FFL.

And my friends brother who works at SIG can buy 4 guns a year with a discount - if he'd be willing to buy one for me, how would I go about being able to bring it into MA? Would he buy it and then I'd have him ship it to a dealer here?

If he is buying it solely with the intent of then selling it to you, that sounds to me as though it might be considered a straw purchase. Provided that the straw purchase issue can be effectively resolved, if he had a handgun you wanted to buy, you and he could bring it to a MA FFL and do the transfer through the MA FFL. Note, however, that the handgun would still have to be on the MA EOPS roster and pass muster with the AG or the FFL probably won't do the transfer.

 

[maee]

How do we go about legally transferring ownership of the rifle to me?

However, can I buy a gun in NH if I leave it in NH (say in a locked box in my brothers gun safe) or am I not allowed to purchase a handgun in NH at all?

If your dad has an expired FID, then he must transfer the rifle to you through an FFL. It is not valid to do a face-to-face transaction via the FA-10 form.

Federal law via the Gun Control Act of 1968 outlaws interstate acquisition of handguns (unless you are a genuine dual-state resident) without going through an FFL in your home state. It has nothing to do with where you store the gun. Now, crossing state lines with the intent to sell it in another state is another violation: dealing without a license. Interstate acquisition of handguns must go through an FFL in your state of residence. In other words, you are SOL unless you are a dual-state resident as interpreted by the ATF and clarified in the 2005 ATF Guide Book on regulations.

 

[maee]

If he is buying it solely with the intent of then selling it to you, that sounds to me as though it might be considered a straw purchase.

Contrary to popular belief, a straw purchase is defined as buying a gun for somebody else, unless it is a bona fide gift: "The term does not apply when the firearm is being purchased as a bona fide gift." -- Wikipedia (so it must be true)

So anyway, if its with the intent to sell it, then yes, its a straw purchase.

 

[Mass-diver]

If your dad has an expired FID, then he must transfer the rifle to you through an FFL. It is not valid to do a face-to-face transaction via the FA-10 form.

+1

 

[jdubois]

Now, crossing state lines with the intent to sell it in another state is another violation: dealing without a license.

??

 

[C-pher]

??

I think that he means, a person in NH buys a brand new Sig just to sell it to a person in MA without using any dealers for the transfer. Which is more in line with trafficking than straw purchase I would think...

 

[Twigg]

If you hold an 03FFL otherwise known as a C&R (Curio & Relic) (Clicky linky) you may purchase any long arm or handgun over 50 years old as well as every firearm on the .gov's offical list from any firearms retailer and other C&R license holders either in-state or across state lines.

The fee for this license is thirty bucks, its good for three years and will also get you discounts from numerous vendors.

No matter how you buy your firearms as long as you do NOT bring them into Massachusetts, you are not obligated to file a FA-10.

BUT if you do bring one into Ma. do not play "Loosey-Goosey" with the gunlaws. Iffin' you do not want the state to know about it, do not bring it into Ma !

Now, crossing state lines with the intent to sell it in another state is another violation: dealing without a license.

Citation needed please.

 

[C-pher]

Still, doesn't do a bit of good for what's being asked here. We're talking about a new SIG from the friend that works there. She can't buy a pistol in that state to keep in that state. Only because she not a resident of New Hampshire, she's a resident of Mass.

If you hold an 03FFL otherwise known as a C&R (Curio & Relic) (Clicky linky) you may purchase any long arm or handgun over 50 years old as well as every firearm on the .gov's offical list from any firearms retailer and other C&R license holders either in-state or across state lines.

The fee for this license is thirty bucks, its good for three years and will also get you discounts from numerous vendors.

No matter how you buy your firearms as long as you do NOT bring them into Massachusetts, you are not obligated to file a FA-10.

BUT if you do bring one into Ma. do not play "Loosey-Goosey" with the gunlaws. Iffin' you do not want the state to know about it, do not bring it into Ma !




Citation needed please.

 

[maee]

Citation needed please.

There is a case where the ATF prosecuted of a guy who was a dual-state resident (or at least he claimed to be). He purchased a large number of handguns in one state, and sold them in another, making a profit (we are talking +20 handguns a pop). His defense was that he was a dual-state resident. While this might have been true, the ATF prosecuted him for interstate dealing without a license, which is somewhat separate from the issue of which state(s) he could legally purchase the guns from.

I think the point is that straw purchases are one thing. Dual-state residency/acquiring out of state handguns is also one thing. However, buying guns in state X with the intent to act as a "dealer" (even if FTF) in another state is a separate issue altogether. The reason the FTF transaction may be illegal if you acquired the guns out of state is that it becomes interstate commerce, which is regulated by the 1968 GCA. Intrastate commerce is not, which is why FTF are legal in the first place. Now, it should be said that to be considered a dealer, you have to be in the business of dealing. An occasional FTF transfer with a dual-state residency acquired firearm may be legal, but if it becomes a business and/or source of profit, you will run afoul of the GCA.

Its hard to find the exact case on Google, but I assure you it is there.

 

[Twigg]

Still, doesn't do a bit of good for what's being asked here. We're talking about a new SIG from the friend that works there. She can't buy a pistol in that state to keep in that state. Only because she not a resident of New Hampshire, she's a resident of Mass.

Yeah, but I figgured I'd throw that info out there anyway.
She might find a wheelgun she likes and at least its a lawfull manner to purchase a handgun in another state.

 

[drgrant]

I think the point is that straw purchases are one thing. Dual-state residency/acquiring out of state handguns is also one thing.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this "dual state resident" stuff... There is no such thing as a "Dual State Resident". Even according to BATFE you are either a resident in one place or another at a given point in time, not both.

Now, it should be said that to be considered a dealer, you have to be in the business of dealing. An occasional FTF transfer with a dual-state residency acquired firearm may be legal, but if it becomes a business and/or source of profit, you will run afoul of the GCA.

Yes, but it generally takes a lot of work to do that- if BATFE comes after you for dealing without a license
because of this, chances are you should have gotten a Type 01 a long time ago.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

So anyway, if its with the intent to sell it, then yes, its a straw purchase.

This depends on how you interpret a straw purchase. A lot of people buy guns as investments, and they usually don't get sent to jail for it.

A "Straw Purchase" by definition is not that simple, it requires certain kind of intent and circumstances (context) to be classified as such.

-Mike

 

[maee]

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this "dual state resident" stuff... There is no such thing as a "Dual State Resident". Even according to BATFE you are either a resident in one place or another at a given point in time, not both.


-Mike

Yes, that is also true. Dual-state resident is a bit of a misnomer. The ATF says you can acquire handguns in your state of residence if you are a "dual-state resident" in the state in which you currently reside[/I (when you actually reside there). They don't specify a minimum length of time. But take the hypothetical situation that you have a house near the state line in MA and a house in NH. On your lunch break at work in MA, you go to NH, buy a gun, and bring it back to MA. Clearly, even if you are a dual state resident, you didn't "currently reside" in NH when you acquired the pistol. You would need to wait until the summer, for example, when you actually move to your summer home in NH.

Also, if you don't believe me about the ATF dual-residency stuff, here is the information directly from the horse's mouth:

Page 126, ATF ruling 80-21:

An out-of-State college student
may establish residence in a State
by residing and maintaining a
home in a college dormitory or in a
location off-campus during the
school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21
"State of residence" is defined by
regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the
State in which an individual regularly
resides or maintains a home. The
regulation also provides an example
of an individual who maintains a
home in State X and a home in State
Y. The individual regularly resides in
State X except for the summer
months and in State Y for the summer
months of the year. The regulation
states that during the time the individual
actually resides in State X he is a
resident of State X, and during the
time he actually resides in State Y he
is a resident of State Y.
Applying the above example to out-of-
State college students it is held,
that during the time the students actually
reside in a college dormitory or
at an off-campus location they are
considered residents of the State
where the dormitory or off-campus
home is located. During the time outof-
State college students actually
reside in their home State they are
considered residents of their home
State.
[ATFB 1980-4 25]

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/rulings.pdf

And also,
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b12

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

In other words, simply owning property is neither necessary nor sufficient. What counts is where you make your home/reside. This is obvious, since if you just own rental property in NH, that doesn't make you a resident. The kicker, is that ATF Ruling 80-21 extends this example to out-of-state college students living in dorms or off-campus.

So in summary, yes, you are correct that there is technically no such thing as "dual state residency". However, it is possible to be a resident of different states at different times during the course of a year.

 

[jdubois]

A "Straw Purchase" by definition is not that simple, it requires certain kind of intent and circumstances (context) to be classified as such.

A straw purchase is simpler that that by definition. ATF's definition of a straw purchase is a purchase where question 12a on a 4473 form as been answered falsely. Therefore, according to ATF, no 4473, no straw purchase.

buying guns in state X with the intent to act as a "dealer" (even if FTF) in another state

Ok, that's a lot better that your original statement that bringing a single handgun across state lines with the intent to sell would be considered acting as a dealer. The truth of the matter is that crossing state lines has nothing to do with whether you are a dealer or not. Any repeated selling of handguns as a regular course of business to make a profit would be considered dealing without a license.

 

[drgrant]

Yes, that is also true. Dual-state resident is a bit of a misnomer. The ATF says you can acquire handguns in your state of residence if you are a "dual-state resident" in the state in which you currently reside[/I (when you actually reside there). They don't specify a minimum length of time.

Isn't there another part of the regs that basically specifies a time interval to establish residency? I thought it was a continuous period of days to establish this. (I remember it being like 90 or 180 days or something like that... )

Then of course there is the fun business about that determination running afoul of what is considered a common law definition of residency... Let's not go there again..

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

A straw purchase is simpler that that by definition. ATF's definition of a straw purchase is a purchase where question 12a on a 4473 form as been answered falsely. Therefore, according to ATF, no 4473, no straw purchase.

Yeah, but come on, you know it isn't that simple. For example, if someone buys a gun (at a dealer) with the sole intent of selling it to someone else, doesn't that meet the definition of a straw?

If I go into an FFL and said "Hey I'm gonna buy this handgun so I can sell it to my friend later..." What do you think they're gonna say?

-Mike

 

[maee]

Isn't there another part of the regs that basically specifies a time interval to establish residency? I thought it was a continuous period of days to establish this. (I remember it being like 90 or 180 days or something like that... )
-Mike

http://www.ttb.gov/rpd/tdatd389.htm
Case law from 1997:

Abu Kamal clearly was not a ``resident'' as that term is defined in
the regulations in 27 CFR 178.11, since he had not resided in Florida
for 90 days before the purchase of the handgun. However, the Firearms

Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473, does not require an affirmative
statement of a purchaser's State of residence or information
documenting an alien's residence in the State of purchase for a period
of 90 days.
...
In the case of aliens legally in the United States, they
would generally have to be a resident of the State where the sale takes
place for the 90-day period preceding the sale.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/27cfr178.11.htm

27 CFR 178.11:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An
individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with
the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on
active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of
residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is
located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be
considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in
the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days
prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are
examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a
home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in
State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to
State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does
not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not
have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

In other words, the 90-day requirement ONLY applies to aliens, not to US Citizens! A US citizen can be a resident of NH when he visits his weekend home for the weekend, or given Ruling 80-21, goes back home to NH on the weekends when college classes are over for the weekend.

MA would really like you to believe otherwise, but if you are an out-of-state college student with a home in both states or have a home (rented or otherwise) in two states, then you can purchase in both states when you reside there. The only requirements are (1) it can't be with the intent to deal (2) you need to be a US citizen (3) it has to be a genuine home, not Joe Blow renting a motel room or using his rental property (4) it cannot be a straw purchase, i.e. you are not buying it for your buddy in MA (5) you comply with MA law by filling out a FA-10 when you bring it to MA just like if you bought a rifle in NH

Of course, there is a sixth requirement: you need to find an out-of-state FFL actually willing to sell to you. This would be difficult if your other state of residence is adjacent to MA. They will likely demand your driver's license, which will be a Mass license since you likely have your resident LTC. However, non-adjacent states, especially those that offer ID cards in addition to driver's license cards for residents, would accept your state ID card with your other home's address in their state listed on it .

 

[Pilgrim]

Is it only a straw purchase if you buy a gun for transfer to a person who cannot legally purchase it for them self?

If so, and I think it is, the you can buy a firearm and sell it or give it away as soon as they leave the store, as long as the person it is transferred to is legally able to own it.

Right ?

 

[drgrant]

Is it only a straw purchase if you buy a gun for transfer to a person who cannot legally purchase it for them self?

No. A LEO was put through the wringer for doing a favor for an eligible
person... look up "Michael Lara" case..... heres an excerpt:

Next, Lt. Michael Lara—a 23-year veteran of the Tucson Police Department— recounted a personal horror story about BATFE’s enforcement priorities. After buying a gun as a gift for a law-abiding friend, Lt. Lara found himself facing federal felony charges as a “straw purchaser.” Lt. Lara lost his job, and didn’t get it back until after a three-month legal nightmare that cost him over $200,000 in legal fees, lost pay and other costs. BATFE never even questioned Lt. Lara before pursuing the charges—and at the end of the trial, the jury promptly acquitted him.

Yes, he was acquitted, but the fact is that they still tried to bring
charges against him for doing something which arguably should have been
legal.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

In other words, the 90-day requirement ONLY applies to aliens, not to US Citizens! A US citizen can be a resident of NH when he visits his weekend home for the weekend, or given Ruling 80-21, goes back home to NH on the weekends when college classes are over for the weekend.

Hmm, for some reason I thought that window applied to all buyers, not just
"aliens. " Guess not.

-Mike

 

[maee]

Yes, he was acquitted, but the fact is that they still tried to bring
charges against him for doing something which arguably should have been
legal.

-Mike

Well, if a straw purchase is defined as buying a gun for somebody else, then this would be it. I don't think he falls under the "bona fide gift" exemption because I'm sure his buddy paid him cash for the favor (its not like he was giving him the pistol for his birthday present). So I would have convicted, not knowing the full details, of course. I bet the jury simply thought it was absurd to toss a good cop in the slammer for legally buying a gun for his friend who could legally own a gun.

 

[Pilgrim]

No. A LEO was put through the wringer for doing a favor for an eligible
person...

Yes, he was acquitted, but the fact is that they still tried to bring
charges against him for doing something which arguably should have been
legal.

So since he was acquitted, yes, it really is legal as per my definition. It's just that some idiot ATBF agent/lawyer thought it wasn't..but the jury corrected them.

 

[maee]

So since he was acquitted, yes, it really is legal as per my definition.

That logic is not entirely sound. OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, but he killed two people. Ergo, murder is legal??

 

[Pilgrim]

That logic is not entirely sound. OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, but he killed two people. Ergo, murder is legal??

He was charged with a straw purchase, but since he was acquitted of doing what the prosecutor THOUGHT was a straw purchase, it really wasn't a straw purchase.

In other words, what he did was legal, not like OJ.

 

[maee]

He was charged with a straw purchase, but since he was acquitted of doing what the prosecutor THOUGHT was a straw purchase, it really wasn't a straw purchase.

In other words, what he did was legal, not like OJ.

Not to beat a dead horse, , but there is always the possibility that he was acquitted because of insufficient evidence, or maybe the jury simply felt that it was absurd and refused to convict him. If the law requires intent, that is often very difficult to prove.

Like I said, I think the cop is guilty based on my understanding of the law. That doesn't mean I would have the heart to convict him, however. On the other hand, if he had happened to buy a gun. And then he happened to sell it FTF to some random buyer, that is unquestionably legal. Thing is, the ATF had to prove that none of this was circumstance, and was done with intent. Not always easy to prove what people were thinking in their heads.

Honestly, a lot of the GCA of '68 is very fuzzy, as even ATF regulations reveal. They are trying to tip-toe around the issues of interstate commerce and the constitution while preventing crime without infringing on the rights of US Citizens. Who is to say that Joe Blow is making a straw purchase if Joe Blow can legally buy a gun, and Joe Blow can legally sell a gun to somebody who can legally own one? The difference is really intent, in my mind.

Sorry, I am obviously wearing my lawyer hat today.

 

[RichM]

OK, let me continue the thread hijacking...

I'm a resident of MA; if I go on an active duty tour in the US, at what point, and after what actions taken, do I become a resident of the other state?

• 
  I do not intend to get a driver's license in that state;

• I will have active duty orders assigning me to that state;

• I will be residing in that state, and returning to MA only on passes or on leave; and

• I will probably vote as a MA resident using an absentee ballot.

If I chose to purchase a firearm in that state, I would first need to obtain a license to carry (depending on the licensing requirements in that state); would that license, a copy of my orders, and my active-duty military ID likely satisfy an FFL that I am able to purchase there?

And at what point would I need to file my FA-10 here in MA? At the completion of my duty when I return to MA, or the first time that I bring that handgun into the state?

Any comments welcome, especially from those here who are active duty. Thanks!

 

[theGringo]

That logic is not entirely sound. OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder, but he killed two people. Ergo, murder is legal??

And now for something completely different ...

 

[jdubois]

Yeah, but come on, you know it isn't that simple. For example, if someone buys a gun (at a dealer) with the sole intent of selling it to someone else, doesn't that meet the definition of a straw?

If you have agreed to the deal with somebody before hand, then yes. If you don't know who you're going to sell it, but only that you're buying it to sell, or if you say, "Gee, I think Bob would really like this, I'm going to pick it up for him," without asking him first, then no, probably not. It really comes down to intent. If somebody other than you intends for this gun to be purchased, it's a straw (philosophically, at least). If you are the only person who intends to purchase the gun, even if your intent is to then sell it or give it to somebody else, it is not a straw.

If I go into an FFL and said "Hey I'm gonna buy this handgun so I can sell it to my friend later..." What do you think they're gonna say?

They're gonna tell you to take a walk, of course. But then FFLs who know what is good for them are going to be very conservative in their interpretations.

 

[jdubois]

I'm a resident of MA; if I go on an active duty tour in the US, at what point, and after what actions taken, do I become a resident of the other state?

You become a resident of the other state when your "permanent duty station" is located there.