Purchasing Luger from unlicensed individual - C&R

[b.fisher]

I haven't run into this situation before, because as a C&R I've purchased always from out of state sellers. However, through my network I was introduced to a man who has a WWII era Luger that was given to him by an elderly friend as a war trophy. He lives in MA and does not have a firearms license or any papers with the gun.

My question is, can I legally acquire this from him?


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[knfmn]

I haven't run into this situation before, because as a C&R I've purchased always from out of state sellers. However, through my network I was introduced to a man who has a WWII era Luger that was given to him by an elderly friend as a war trophy. He lives in MA and does not have a firearms license or any papers with the gun.

My question is, can I legally acquire this from him?


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Pretty sure this has been covered 50 times already. Only legal way to acquire the pistol is to find a dealer willing to do the transfer from him to you.

 

[b.fisher]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if me being a C&R removed the need for a dealer as a middleman.


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[Len-2A Training]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if me being a C&R removed the need for a dealer as a middleman.


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Sadly, not in MA it doesn't. Worst case take him and gun to a NH FFL (that is willing to do it, some won't even to a C&R) and do a FFL to FFL transfer. If the guy lived out of state you could do it nice and legal as private party to FFL is legal in most states just not MA when the FFL is only a C&R FFL.

 

[knfmn]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if me being a C&R removed the need for a dealer as a middleman.


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It doesn't, bud. I'm sorry about that. Maybe if you hunt around you can find someone who will. I also apologize for being a jerk with my response last night.

 

[b.fisher]

It doesn't, bud. I'm sorry about that. Maybe if you hunt around you can find someone who will. I also apologize for being a jerk with my response last night.

Haha no worries man, thanks all for the responses and help!


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[b.fisher]

What if the person WAS an FID holder and wanted to sell a rifle (mauser) that was a war trophy. Could I just treat it like a typical private sale and FA10 it?


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[Len-2A Training]

What if the person WAS an FID holder and wanted to sell a rifle (mauser) that was a war trophy. Could I just treat it like a typical private sale and FA10 it?


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NOT legally if it expired which is what I read into your post.

 

[browncoat]

What if the person WAS an FID holder and wanted to sell a rifle (mauser) that was a war trophy. Could I just treat it like a typical private sale and FA10 it?


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A rifle is easier to deal with though because there are no compliance problems, most FFLs should be willing to do a rifle transfer.

 

[b.fisher]

Yeah that's what I figured. Turns out his FID isn't expired.

You're saying I, as a MA LTC (forget the C&R now bc we're talking a MA legal bolt action) still can't purchase it from him?


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[Len-2A Training]

Yeah that's what I figured. Turns out his FID isn't expired.

You're saying I, as a MA LTC (forget the C&R now bc we're talking a MA legal bolt action) still can't purchase it from him?


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No. You stated "WAS" as in past tense. 2 MA residents licensed can transfer the rifle.

 

[the_shootist]

I'm a C&R holder...do you guys in MA mean that MA further restricts your entitlements granted by the Feds under your C&R license?

 

[b.fisher]

Purchasing Luger from unlicensed individual - C&R

Ahhhh ok I see my mistake, I worded that incorrectly. He IS and FID holder. Sorry fellas.

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm a C&R holder...do you guys in MA mean that MA further restricts your entitlements granted by the Feds under your C&R license?

yes.

PRM does not recognize the CR FFL - you still need the face-to-face FID/LTC paperwork.

 

[the_shootist]

Sucks man!

yes.

PRM does not recognize the CR FFL - you still need the face-to-face FID/LTC paperwork.

 

[Billsail]

Not to complicate further, but does he hold one of those "non-expiring, good for life", pre-'98 FIDs?

Others may know better, but isn't it a moot point, as we are talking about a handgun? Or are you saying a NH, or MA FFL may be OK with a MA FID to transfer a Luger?

 

[browncoat]

What if two MA residents, one of whom has a C&R ffl cross state lines and make a sale in say NH

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's a handgun (I had forgotten) and thus one needs a LTC to legally possess it. An FID won't cut it and no you can't transfer a handgun from an FID person to a LTC person as a FTF transaction. Only option is a MA Dealer, some may do it others won't. If the new owner (to be) has a C&R FFL and a MA LTC, they might find a NH Dealer who will do the transfer . . . a few might where others won't.

 

[dgrafton]

Could the MA resident in the OP sell it directly to a C&R from out of state?

 

[OfficerObie59]

I'm a C&R holder...do you guys in MA mean that MA further restricts your entitlements granted by the Feds under your C&R license?

yes.

PRM does not recognize the CR FFL - you still need the face-to-face FID/LTC paperwork.

Not quite true. MA has it's own laws and licensing concerning dealers. Don't confound a dealer FFL with a dealer's MA license to sell firearms. It's the latter you guys don't have an the latter that's required to transfer guns from unlicensed persons.

 

[45collector]

What if two MA residents, one of whom has a C&R ffl cross state lines and make a sale in say NH

My head is sorta spinning on this one. Does the fact that the two parties are not actually doing the transfer in MA negate the fact that a MA resident with an LTC and a C&R can still not receive a C&R pistol from a MA resident who has no firearms license whatsoever? We all know a MA resident with an LTC and C&R may receive C&R handguns from out-of-state sellers, but under Fed law is it required that if a C&R holder wants to buy a C&R pistol while they are outside their home state, the seller must either have a C&R license or an FFL01? I don't remember because I've never been involved with the situation the OP posted. If it was done the way you described it joshk1025, and the buyer completed the eFA10 using the "registration" option (therefore leaving the seller's info blank), and then just logged the gun into his C&R bound book (recording the seller's name and address because he, the seller, is a non-licensee), would anyone ever catch wind of the circumvention of MA FTF transfer laws? And if the ATF audited your bound book and saw that you received a C&R pistol from a non-licensee (as in someone who held no FFL of any type) who resided in your home state, would they even care? Would the ATF contact the MA FRB and inform them that you did a FTF transfer with a fellow Ma$$hole who didn't have any kind of firearms license? Again, my head is starting to spin but I'm pretty sure you can't do this legally.

Could the MA resident in the OP sell it directly to a C&R from out of state?

Under MA law, legally the old guy with the Luger can't do anything with it besides getting it into an FFL01's hands. And in doing that, he better make sure someone with an LTC comes along for the ride to the FFL and is "in control" of it. It's been a while since I shipped a C&R pistol to an out-of-state buyer so I'm trying to remember if FedEx requires a copy of the sellers/ senders FFL before they ship to an out-of-state FFL. I know they require a copy of the recipient's FFL. Under Fed law, a C&R holder may receive a C&R pistol from an unlicensed out-of-state seller, sure. So, if the old guy got the Luger into a MA FFL01's hands so he could be legally OK under MA law, the MA FFL01 could then ship the gun to an out-of-state FFL01 or C&R holder. But then what? Do you think an out-of-state FFL01 would raise an eyebrow if he received a C&R pistol from a MA FFL01 with instructions to immediately transfer and ship the gun to a MA FFL03? I think so. Do you think a C&R holder in NH, (no matter how well he knows the OP) would be willing to do this and risk a straw purchase prosecution?

My head just plain hurts now.

ETA: Someone will be along shortly to tell you to take the Luger off the old guy's hands and just STFU about it. That's entirely up to you OP, to risk getting in big trouble for doing that.

 

[daltrey99]

What he said

 

[b.fisher]

Purchasing Luger from unlicensed individual - C&R

Ok - I am going to RUN away from the Luger deal. As a C&R with a pretty expansive network out of state, I have access to plenty of nice Lugers that I can acquire legally without having to worry about "big brother."

This thread has been extremely informative, a sincere thank you to those who took the time to post.

The Mauser, however, will hopefully be mine soon.

Here's another question: in the case of the RIFLE, does the seller (FID holder) need to fill out an eFA10 with the "registration" option before selling it to me in the FTF transaction? As a war trophy, I doubt it's ever been "registered" at all. I'm assuming the fact that we will FA10 the sale will negate the need to double register it.


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[browncoat]

Ok - I am going to RUN away from the Luger deal. As a C&R with a pretty expansive network out of state, I have access to plenty of nice Lugers that I can acquire legally without having to worry about "big brother."

This thread has been extremely informative, a sincere thank you to those who took the time to post.

The Mauser, however, will hopefully be mine soon.

Here's another question: in the case of the RIFLE, does the seller (FID holder) need to fill out an eFA10 with the "registration" option before selling it to me in the FTF transaction? As a war trophy, I doubt it's ever been "registered" at all. I'm assuming the fact that we will FA10 the sale will negate the need to double register it.


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No, the rifle doesn't need to be registered, since it predates the system. Similarly a gun brought by someone moving into the state can be sold with no prior fa10

 

[OfficerObie59]

Under MA law, legally the old guy with the Luger can't do anything with it besides getting it into an FFL01's hands.

Again, FFL's are irrelevent for transfers between MA residents. What matters is that when one party no longer has a valid FID or, in this case involving a Luger, a valid LTC, the transaction no longer qualifies for the exemption language that allows private party "FTF" transfers in MGL 140/128 and 128A. In such a case, the gun then has to go through a party with a Massachusetts Gun Dealer's License. While it is true that almost all MA dealers have FFL01's, the problem is not that your C&R is any less of an FFL license--its that you don't also possess a MA dealers license.

The way the law is written, every transfer is presumed required to have to go through a party with a MA dealers license. Then the law says "There's an exception if both parties have valid FID's or LTC's but the seller can only transfer four a year."

 

[browncoat]

Again, FFL's are irrelevent for transfers between MA residents. What matters is that when one party no longer has a valid FID or, in this case involving a Luger, a valid LTC, the transaction no longer qualifies for the exemption language that allows private party "FTF" transfers in MGL 140/128 and 128A. In such a case, the gun then has to go through a party with a Massachusetts Gun Dealer's License. While it is true that almost all MA dealers have FFL01's, the problem is not that your C&R is any less of an FFL license--its that you don't also possess a MA dealers license.

The way the law is written, every transfer is presumed required to have to go through a party with a MA dealers license. Then the law says "There's an exception if both parties have valid FID's or LTC's but the seller can only transfer four a year."

Is the 4 a year in the law, or is the 4 a year in a CMR somewhere? I have been looking for where the 4 a year is defined and I couldn't find it in the law, just the requirement to report legal and illegal transfers.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Is the 4 a year in the law, or is the 4 a year in a CMR somewhere? I have been looking for where the 4 a year is defined and I couldn't find it in the law, just the requirement to report legal and illegal transfers.

MGL 140/128A:

The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year...

EDIT: I should note that "section one hundred and twenty-two" is a reference to the MA dealer's license.

 

[PATRON]

After all this can you tell us what type of Luger was it,and how much he wanted for it.

 

[45collector]

After all this can you tell us what type of Luger was it,and how much he wanted for it.

Can't believe I didn't ask that myself!

 

[b.fisher]

Haha sure - it was a mismatched, import marked WW1 DWM Luger. Asking price was $1k with a salty holster.


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