Opinion - C&R sales within Massachusetts

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I am going to be listing some guns on Gunbroker, and probably the NES site as well. I have already used my 4 yearly transfers so I am going to be listing them that I will send them to an 01FFL or C&R except in Mass where it must be an 01FFL, no C&R's even on C&R guns.
I feel I need to list and sell this way because we have to follow all applicable state laws and that means a sale/transfer between two parties needs a LTC/FID (depending on gun) and the seller (me) doing an FA10. Since I have done my 4, I have to go through a transfer dealer. However I can ship directly to that dealer from my C&R 03FFL to their 01FFL (or 03FFL if outside of Mass)

Correct?

I am sure I will get some buyers who say a C&R is all that is needed for a transfer but my reading of the law is that I still have to do the FA10

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes, an 03 C&R FFL can ship to any other FFL . . . if the incoming FFL will accept it.

Yes, you are supposed to do an FA-10 out per FRB. It must be done on paper with name & city/state of transfer dealer (MA Dealer # if known & applicable). I'd be VERY CAREFUL if it was going direct to another 03 FFL out of state, as it will look like an illegal (federally) interstate transfer to a non-dealer. In that case I'd probably forgo doing the FA-10. Doing the FA-10 gets it out of your name (only) when they run a Certified List (not from PD terminal, but from FRB directly) of last owner of the gun. FRB can supply this list, the PDs can't generate it themselves. [This info came direct from the current Director of FRB, when I asked her the mechanism for doing this. Jason Guida originally told me that it was required . . . we argued that point but I never asked him how it could be done.]

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

LenS
I was under the impression that if I sold to a 01FFL out of state, such as Kittery Trading Post that I didn't have to do an FA10, reading your response I would still have to do an FA10 and put in Kittery Trading Post as the buyer.
I currently have an AR15 at a Mass dealer on consignment, so will I have to do an FA10 naming him as the buyer when it sells?

Talked to Carl at FS Guns and he said that I don't do an FA10 to sell a gun through a dealer, is he right?

 

[Len-2A Training]

No, according to FRB's reading of the law, Carl is wrong.

Jason told me that he ran seminars for dealers and when he told them that FA-10s were required when they buy (or sell consignment) guns from individuals that he was almost laughed out of the room. That's why he and I were arguing over this requirement. He told me that people COULD be prosecuted for failure to do so. Once he told me about the Certified List (that could avoid police ripping out your walls looking for hidden guns that actually were sold years ago), I understood that this would not be a bad thing to do.

Dealers (in MA) absolutely won't do the FA-10 so it falls on us. I see the merit. IANAL but I don't fully buy the idea that it is required by law.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

SO basically we are screwed then because you can only do 4 FA10's a year or you are breaking the law. So if I want to sell 12 guns it is going to take me 3 y

I will check with Scrivner also, being a firearms attorney and on the FRB so he should be able to tell me.

 

[Kevlar]

SO basically we are screwed then because you can only do 4 FA10's a year or you are breaking the law.

No, the statute (MGL 140-128A) states "...sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer ... not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year; ..."

Transfers to/through a FFL are exempt from the yearly disposition limit.

I will check with Scrivner also, being a firearms attorney and on the FRB so he should be able to tell me.

It is my understanding that he is no longer on the FLRB.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I just talked to the FRB for about 15 minutes and they were very helpful

LenS you are correct, we have to do FA10's even for sales through a dealer. But there is no limit on the number of FA10's that we can do through a dealer (unlike the 4 a year private party to private party) we just put in their dealer number. They said it is like you said it is up to us to have the paperwork in order. Luckily I like paper work.
For an out of state sale the paperwork would have to be done on paper FA10's.

I am requesting a certified record of all the guns I have had in my life time (starting about Lincolns second term) and then I can correct any paperwork glitches.

 

[noxin]

So, you can do a transfer to a C&R because they have FFL numbers?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

According to the Brown Book of rules on the FFL's a C&R can sell to a C&R interstate. I will review the rules on their website again, but I have bought many guns from 03FFL's as you are a Federal Licensee.
Now, how Mass looks at it is another story as they do not recognise a 03FFL

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Section 478.94 of the CFR says that you can sell or otherwise dispos of curios and relisc to another licensee, it doesn't state "in your own state"

Personally I think I would want to go through a 01FFL, dealer, to cover my butt since I live in MASS. An transfer to a non-licensee is covered by section 478.96 and the transaction has to be done at your premisis, but that becomes a FTF in Mass and would need a FA10 and would count against your 4 per year.

§ 478.94

Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1140-0032)

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10496, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by ATF-11F, 73 FR 57241, Oct. 2, 2008]

 

[Len-2A Training]

So, you can do a transfer to a C&R because they have FFL numbers?

No, MA wants the buyers "license number" issued by the state, so FFL # may not work here. I suppose you can do it on paper, whether or not it gets rejected I have no idea.

According to the Brown Book of rules on the FFL's a C&R can sell to a C&R interstate. I will review the rules on their website again, but I have bought many guns from 03FFL's as you are a Federal Licensee.
Now, how Mass looks at it is another story as they do not recognise a 03FFL

See above . . . unless we can put the FFL # in, it will look like a Ben Cartwright (MA) transfer to John Smith (FL) and an illegal interstate transfer. I wouldn't do that and IIRC someone that did buy a gun ended up with a BATFE agent and local PD paying him a visit until they bought his explanation. I don't need that kind of stress in my life, so unless there is a clean way to do it that indicates it was a legal interstate transaction, I won't be filing those FA-10s.

I also don't lose any sleep over their incomplete or inaccurate records. I have record of all my transactions, except for one sale to an FFL back in the 1980s. Said FFL is long out of business but still a personal friend, so I know where he lives if push ever came to shove. I don't even remember what year I sold it, it was on consignment at his shop for a long time before it sold.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

No, MA wants the buyers "license number" issued by the state, so FFL # may not work here. I suppose you can do it on paper, whether or not it gets rejected I have no idea.

.

In my talk with the FRB today they said for an out of state sale you have to use a paper form as you have to put in the Dealers FFL number. A 03FFL might work but I agree with LenS I don't need the stress, so if I sell on Gunbroker myself to avoid the 20% commission a dealer here will charge, I will say must be sent to a 01FFL and then fill out the paperwork.
I am going to call FRB tomorrow to see if the out of state dealer has to sign it or if I just put their info in. I can see an out of state dealer refusing to sign or send paperwork back. Which is why alot of people bite the bullet and put guns on consignment.

 

[JNewell]

In my talk with the FRB today they said for an out of state sale you have to use a paper form as you have to put in the Dealers FFL number. A 03FFL might work but I agree with LenS I don't need the stress, so if I sell on Gunbroker myself to avoid the 20% commission a dealer here will charge, I will say must be sent to a 01FFL and then fill out the paperwork.
I am going to call FRB tomorrow to see if the out of state dealer has to sign it or if I just put their info in. I can see an out of state dealer refusing to sign or send paperwork back. Which is why alot of people bite the bullet and put guns on consignment.

FWIW I have received the same advice this year from FRB. It would be easier to comply if paper forms were easier to find...I had a couple left over, so I filed as requested.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I have 6 guns that I traded to Kittery for a couple of shotguns back in 2004, didn't know I needed to do an FA10 for an out of state sale, now that I do know I will backdate paper FA10's and mail them off.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I am going to call FRB tomorrow to see if the out of state dealer has to sign it or if I just put their info in. I can see an out of state dealer refusing to sign or send paperwork back. Which is why alot of people bite the bullet and put guns on consignment.

They know that no non-MA dealer (or even a MA dealer) will sign the FA-10 for this issue. Just put the info in and ignore the FFL signature. FRB understands this.

I have 6 guns that I traded to Kittery for a couple of shotguns back in 2004, didn't know I needed to do an FA10 for an out of state sale, now that I do know I will backdate paper FA10's and mail them off.

I wouldn't worry about anything that old. And since you have to file the FA-10s within 7 days of a transaction, you'd be opening up a can of worms filing old back-dated forms anyway.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Thanks Len

The old guns were a shotgun and a some 22's and one Ruger MKIII.

A friend of mine also said to not worry about the old stuff, he also said if they come in to know down walls I will have bigger problems if it got to that point. He said a friend of his had a RO pulled against him and the cops just told him to turn in all his guns they didn't request a list from the FRB.

I took care of the ones I transferred to my son through a dealer this past weekend and the two that are on consignment, already got a bid on the AR for more than I paid for it new!

 

[n1heu]

If a NH resident C&R FFL has a rifle he wishes to sell, may a Mass resident travel to the sellers house in NH, buy the rifle then complete an FA-10 back in MA?

 

[Kevlar]

If a NH resident C&R FFL has a rifle he wishes to sell, may a Mass resident travel to the sellers house in NH, buy the rifle then complete an FA-10 back in MA?

Yes...

(c)(1) ... a licensed collector may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun that is a curio or relic to a nonlicensed resident of a State other than the State in which the licensee's place of business is located if—

(i) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun;

>snip<

(iv) The sale, delivery, and receipt of the rifle or shotgun fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States.​

​

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title27-vol3/xml/CFR-2012-title27-vol3-sec478-96.xml

 

[Len-2A Training]

.

 

[SalemCat]

If a NH resident C&R FFL has a rifle he wishes to sell, may a Mass resident travel to the sellers house in NH, buy the rifle then complete an FA-10 back in MA?

Can't a MA License Holder, LTC-A, LTC-B, or FID buy any non-AWB and non-Large Capacity Longgun in another State and bring it back ? Naturally an FA-10 would be filled out by the MA Buyer.

 

[June4th]

Can't a MA License Holder, LTC-A, LTC-B, or FID buy any non-AWB and non-Large Capacity Longgun in another State and bring it back ? Naturally an FA-10 would be filled out by the MA Buyer.

Of course, the deal itself is legal, you just have to make sure the transportation part is too.

 

[SalemCat]

Of course, the deal itself is legal, you just have to make sure the transportation part is too.

I believe if you keep the longgun unloaded, locked, and HIDDEN buying one from Vermont or NH should be no problem. I don't know about other NE states.

 

[exo]

Holy moly!

Don't file backdated FA-10's for that kind of stuff, you're only going to invite possible charges for failing to file within the 7 day window.

Has the FRB in its wisdom instructed you on how to fill out the FA-10 for these transfers to dealers? And if they aren't distributing paper FA-10s anymore (despite what the FRB says about mailing them to PDs, people are still having great difficulty obtaining them), and the online system doesn't support it, how on earth are you supposed to comply?

Not that I buy their argument that reporting is required when transferred to a dealer, anyway.

 

[SalemCat]

Can you order FA-10 forms from the FRB ?

 

[exo]

Can you order FA-10 forms from the FRB ?

No. They will only send them to your local PD, or so they say. Many PDs are incorrectly telling people who ask for forms that they must all be done online now.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

The FRB told me to put their FFL number into the first line of the buyer info, for LTC or License number, there are 15 spaces on the paper form and the FFL number is 15 characters long.
I am assuming that an 03FFL number would also be acceptable there and it is also 15 characters.

When I talked to the PD I mentioned selling guns to out of state dealers as a reason for a paper form as stipulated by the FRB and that seemed to satisfy them.

 

[exo]

If the FRB is actually correct in their interpretation of the law, then I would venture a guess that most gun owners in MA are criminals. Let them try and enforce it.

 

[noxin]

Can't a MA License Holder, LTC-A, LTC-B, or FID buy any non-AWB and non-Large Capacity Longgun in another State and bring it back ? Naturally an FA-10 would be filled out by the MA Buyer.

IANAL, but I recall that interstate long gun transactions must be done via an FFL. Then you can bring it back and FA10 it. With a C&R, assuming the long gun or pistol qualifies, you don't need to go through an FFL, but must file an FA10 when it enters the state.

 

[SalemCat]

IANAL, but I recall that interstate long gun transactions must be done via an FFL. Then you can bring it back and FA10 it. With a C&R, assuming the long gun or pistol qualifies, you don't need to go through an FFL, but must file an FA10 when it enters the state.

Aren't our Laws just the BEST ?

Konfusion is KING !!!

Not sayin' you're wrong. I just don't know anymore.

 

[June4th]

Long gun transaction can be done at the FFL at the seller's state (in contrast, handguns must involve an FFL in the buyer's state). C&R guns can follow the rules discussed in earlier part of the thread. All situations you need to file FA-10 after the firearm gets into MA.