October HSC Rifle Match (per request of TheRoland)

Knuckle Dragger

Knuckle Dragger

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If anyone is shooting Sunday at Harvard and has a couple of extra mag holder (P226) they're willing to loan me for the day I greatly appreciate it. I loaned mine out and haven't gotten them back yet.

Thanks.
 
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I may have to put in the same request :) I have not gotten around to ordering any and the only thing I got is the old 3 mag carrier from an army surplus store. I figured tossing in my pocket if need be.
 
I'm assuming 2 30-rounders will be enough, so I'm just going to go with the cargo pants pockets. I'm not going to be shooting rifle matches frequently enough to warrant buying mag holders.
 
mlaboss said:
I'm assuming 2 30-rounders will be enough, so I'm just going to go with the cargo pants pockets. I'm not going to be shooting rifle matches frequently enough to warrant buying mag holders.
Click to expand...

Last year, I never reloaded more than once per stage using 30-round magazines. I don't know anything about this year's match.
 
If you have more, bring them. You may get sand or mud in the mags if you drop them, or do a lousy reload and they fall out.
 
Gammon said:
Any word on the match? It would be nice to know if we are going to be shooting at 300 yds.
Click to expand...

I doubt it as the 300 yd range is members only and requires qualification.

Looking forward to the match.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk
 
The last time I spoke with Dan Hurley, the 300 yard range cannot be used. The board is concerned about rounds leaving the range. Many of the shooters at this match do not have a proper zero to use at 200-300 yards. A "50 yard Zero" is not a zero at 200 yards, it's a 50 yard zero. On top of that, some shooters zeroed at an extremely short distance, as the figured that would work for the stages in pistol pits. When they got to the 300 yard range, the short range zero had rounds going several feet high at 200 yards. I was on the squad and witnessed this.
 
Since Braintree's rifle range is closed, I don't have a place to check the zero on my AR before Sunday's match. I'm wondering if anyone would be open to have me as a guest at their range for an hour to zero? I've been a regular at Harvard's pistol matches this year and been to Manville and New Bedford a few times as well. I'm also competent and safe with an AR. PM me if someone is open to this. Thanks.
 
Dan,

Rifle zeroing seems to be a big issue at both large and small rifle/3G matches. In the matches I have been to over the past year; I would guess 1/3 to 1/2 the shooters did not have good zeros at a realistic distance 200-300 yard, many say "hey I just put this XXXX on my gun and didn't have a chance to zero it". What’s up with that? Going to shoot a match without zeroing a weapon?

I never thought about a bad zero being so far off they would shoot over the backstop.

I understand the clubs position and am not blaming them in the least.

The result is that those who would like to shoot at longer distances (read rifle match, not a pistol match with rifles) are penalized.

I do have some sympathy for those that don’t live near a range, but if you want to shoot a “rifle” match you should come prepared.

Is there any cure for this?

Chupa88, I live in Groton, ct and will be checking my 200 zero Saturday at my local range if you’re in the area you are welcome to join me.

David E.
 
Nuke8401 - thanks very much for your offer but I neglected to say that I'm in the greater Boston area. So Groton, CT would be just a bit too far for me to drive to. But again, thanks very much for your offer. Anyone at Harvard, Woburn or Ames?
 
Nuke8401 said:
Dan,

Rifle zeroing seems to be a big issue at both large and small rifle/3G matches. In the matches I have been to over the past year; I would guess 1/3 to 1/2 the shooters did not have good zeros at a realistic distance 200-300 yard, many say "hey I just put this XXXX on my gun and didn't have a chance to zero it". What’s up with that? Going to shoot a match without zeroing a weapon?

I never thought about a bad zero being so far off they would shoot over the backstop.

I understand the clubs position and am not blaming them in the least.

The result is that those who would like to shoot at longer distances (read rifle match, not a pistol match with rifles) are penalized.

I do have some sympathy for those that don’t live near a range, but if you want to shoot a “rifle” match you should come prepared.

Is there any cure for this?

Chupa88, I live in Groton, ct and will be checking my 200 zero Saturday at my local range if you’re in the area you are welcome to join me.

David E.
Click to expand...

You're not penalized. You shoot the same course as everyone else.

If you don't like the short course matches, then don't shoot them

The problem isn't what people zero at, the problem is people don't know their dope. I shot was a 8 moa dot zero'ed at 10 yards. Didn't have any issues at 300
 
He's referring to the ranges not being available for a match, because of the eternal fear of a round leaving the range. Not that it shouldn't be thought about.
Rob did have a problem with the same zero. He either ran out of time, or ammo on that stage.
 
Supermoto said:
The problem isn't what people zero at, the problem is people don't know their dope. I shot was a 8 moa dot zero'ed at 10 yards. Didn't have any issues at 300
Click to expand...

Unless your gun is way the F off... I can't see how anyone could shoot over that berm! If your zero is at 10, 20, 50 or 100... it won't make your rounds go over the berm. If you zero at 10 yds.... I can see it going high at 100-200 I'm guessing... but it's not going to more that a couple feet over. Am I wrong? I think it is just a club rule thing.... need to be qualified.

Edit: I just talked to a slightly wiser man than me :) Skipping rounds off the ground is the bigger problem... I hadn't thought of that.
 
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Lugnut said:
I think it is just a club rule thing.... need to be qualified.
Click to expand...

I think there both concern that Club Members must qualify and that two years ago, several shooters were impacting below the berm, so skipping rounds was a concern.

The original thread about it is still available to HSC members on the HSC members-only forum, which I'll not link.
 
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Lugnut said:
Unless your gun is way the F off... I can't see how anyone could shoot over that berm! If your zero is at 10, 20, 50 or 100... it won't make your rounds go over the berm. If you zero at 10 yds.... I can see it going high at 100-200 I'm guessing... but it's not going to more that a couple feet over. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Dave too close a zero can cause issues at distance.

Trajectory (Simplified)
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail W/C
Caliber: 0.224 in Weight: 55.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.243 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 3050.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 2.75 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Target Speed: 10.0 mph

Temperature: 80.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 50.0 % Altitude: 200.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 26.440 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07249 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1138.9 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 342 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 296 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 174 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 431.6 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.157 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -2.8 *** 0.0 *** 3050.0 2.678 1135.9 0.000 0.0 ***
10 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 3010.9 2.644 1106.9 0.010 1.7 16.6
20 2.7 12.9 0.0 0.2 2972.1 2.610 1078.6 0.020 3.5 16.7
30 5.4 17.1 0.1 0.3 2933.7 2.576 1050.9 0.030 5.3 16.9
40 8.0 19.1 0.2 0.4 2895.6 2.543 1023.8 0.040 7.1 17.0
50 10.6 20.3 0.3 0.5 2857.9 2.509 997.3 0.051 8.9 17.1
60 13.2 20.9 0.4 0.7 2820.4 2.477 971.3 0.061 10.8 17.2
70 15.7 21.4 0.6 0.8 2783.3 2.444 945.9 0.072 12.7 17.3
80 18.1 21.6 0.7 0.9 2746.5 2.412 921.0 0.083 14.6 17.4
90 20.5 21.8 1.0 1.0 2709.9 2.380 896.7 0.094 16.5 17.5
100 22.9 21.9 1.2 1.1 2673.7 2.348 872.9 0.105 18.5 17.7
110 25.2 21.9 1.4 1.2 2637.8 2.316 849.6 0.116 20.5 17.8
120 27.5 21.9 1.7 1.4 2602.1 2.285 826.8 0.128 22.5 17.9
130 29.7 21.8 2.0 1.5 2566.7 2.254 804.4 0.139 24.5 18.0
140 31.9 21.7 2.4 1.6 2531.6 2.223 782.6 0.151 26.6 18.2
150 34.0 21.6 2.7 1.7 2496.8 2.192 761.2 0.163 28.7 18.3
160 36.0 21.5 3.1 1.9 2462.2 2.162 740.3 0.175 30.8 18.4
170 38.0 21.4 3.6 2.0 2427.9 2.132 719.8 0.188 33.0 18.5
180 40.0 21.2 4.0 2.1 2393.9 2.102 699.8 0.200 35.2 18.7
190 41.8 21.0 4.5 2.3 2360.1 2.072 680.2 0.213 37.4 18.8
200 43.6 20.8 5.0 2.4 2326.6 2.043 661.0 0.225 39.7 18.9
210 45.4 20.6 5.6 2.5 2293.4 2.014 642.2 0.238 42.0 19.1
220 47.1 20.4 6.2 2.7 2260.4 1.985 623.9 0.252 44.3 19.2
230 48.7 20.2 6.8 2.8 2227.7 1.956 606.0 0.265 46.6 19.4
240 50.2 20.0 7.5 3.0 2195.2 1.928 588.4 0.278 49.0 19.5
250 51.7 19.8 8.2 3.1 2163.0 1.899 571.3 0.292 51.4 19.6
260 53.1 19.5 8.9 3.3 2131.1 1.871 554.6 0.306 53.9 19.8
270 54.4 19.3 9.6 3.4 2099.5 1.843 538.2 0.320 56.4 19.9
280 55.7 19.0 10.5 3.6 2068.1 1.816 522.2 0.335 58.9 20.1
290 56.8 18.7 11.3 3.7 2037.0 1.789 506.7 0.349 61.5 20.2
300 57.9 18.4 12.2 3.9 2006.2 1.762 491.4 0.364 64.1 20.4

Notice that with a 10 yard zero, 300 yards is over 4 1/2 feet high. Although, it is the skipping that is the big concern. One time at Second Chance, watching the machine guns at night really opened up my eyes about ricochets. The tracers were amazing to watch, and informative.
 
chupa88 said:
Since Braintree's rifle range is closed, I don't have a place to check the zero on my AR before Sunday's match. I'm wondering if anyone would be open to have me as a guest at their range for an hour to zero? I've been a regular at Harvard's pistol matches this year and been to Manville and New Bedford a few times as well. I'm also competent and safe with an AR. PM me if someone is open to this. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I am headed to the range tomorrow at 0830 to zero at 200 if you want to drive to Eastham [wink]
 
Dan S said:
Dave too close a zero can cause issues at distance.

Notice that with a 10 yard zero, 300 yards is over 4 1/2 feet high. Although, it is the skipping that is the big concern. One time at Second Chance, watching the machine guns at night really opened up my eyes about ricochets. The tracers were amazing to watch, and informative.
Click to expand...

Yep and with a 8 moa dot covering 24" of the target 12" wide target. It is easier to hold low, slightly below the base then try to hold dead on, same with the texas star at 75 yards, Its difficult to see the plates when the dot covers the entire plate, but if you hold low with the top of the dot at the base of the plate, you will get hits.

Then on the fast close in stuff when you are not taking a clear sight picture, you are always inside the dot and don't have to worry about hold over.
 
The biggest problem is indeed the skipping. The second biggest problem is that some shooters begin moving the gun around when they don't hit the target. The don't know their 200 yard zero and they don't know where the bullet is striking, so they move the gun even more. Eventually, they are hitting very far away from the target.

Like Dan said, skipping is amazing and tracers are the proof. Two bullets can strike the apparently same place, one skips straight along the ground and the other skips up into the sky. This variation happens even on flat water.
 
Dan S said:
Dave too close a zero can cause issues at distance.
Notice that with a 10 yard zero, 300 yards is over 4 1/2 feet high. Although, it is the skipping that is the big concern. One time at Second Chance, watching the machine guns at night really opened up my eyes about ricochets. The tracers were amazing to watch, and informative.
Click to expand...

Yeah... on that range the berm is over 30 feet high at least... but the skipping could be nasty I'm sure... and they don't always just go up!
 
I have been using the 50 yard zero for my reflex site and find it useable at all distances I shoot. Tomorrow I will be testing it again at 200 yards but according to my notes it was on target at 200 shooting a 8" plate. Charts I use are those published by Kyle Lamb and with my limited knowledge, I find them dead on.

This LINK has good info for me and I understood it. For me and my thixk head that is something.

DanS, the chart you posted and sent me a while back, I find very confusing. The Kyle Lamb chart accompanied by my notes at various times seems to work for me.

In this area, the chance of shooting past 100 yards in a match is slim. The chance of shooting past 200 yards is even slimmer and for me will most likely never happen.

Using the 50 yard zero, I can hit steel at 200. Using the 100 yard zero, I can hit steel at 200. The holdover for close targets and the adjustment needed for close up shots is easier with the 50yard zero for me.

I recall the 300 yard stage I worked at Harvard several years ago. I was a RO on the stage so I got to see what the shooters were doing. I had never shot at that distance before and was not able to shoot the match only worked it. Frank M let me try with my rifle and I was able to hit with my dot site 3 out of 5 shots with his help after checking at 200 first. That was with a 50 yard zero.

I suppose this discussion should take place in a different thread and maybe someone can break it out.

I feel the zero needs to either be something you use for MOST of your shooting and have the dope recorded for the odd distances or something you change for a particular match.

Edit to add, my Reflex is a Trijicon with a 4moa dot if that makes any difference.
 
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