Obama to end Don't ask, Don't tell

[mikem317]

It's funny. The majority of people who say that are people who won't serve, period. Kinda makes it seem like a lot of bullshit.

Oh, the irony.

I bet.

Might be some age demographics at work there... Just a thought...

But certainly, its easier to say someone else should be tolerant in a situation you have not chosen to enter...

Perhaps. I've noticed that younger folks tend to be more liberty minded and aren't as beholden to xenophobic rhetoric. I guess that plays out here.

Look, whether you like it or not YOU HAVE NO IDEA what the hell you are talking about. All I can say is probably the military wouldn't want the likes of you.
No you don't know what it is like. JCETTO said it best. Now if you don't like it it is called the military bubbas section for a reason. Don't like the answers leave.
We have more dogs in this fight than you do. You want to be an ass about things, I won't play nice.
Look plenty of us have served with someone that is gay or lesbian, now if you don' t like what has been said you can go pound sand.
As I have stated I served with an E-7 that was gay, did I care NO, what he did outside of work, the barracks is his business not mine. There are plenty of reasons why Don't ask Don't tell shouldn't be taken away. Someone else posted why, you obviously don't like what has been said or the reasons.
You still don't get it and you won't. SO at this point take your argument elsewhere.

Of course.

Either put up a cogent argument or don't even bother posting. "Oh, you wouldn't understand." Right. Well this is hardly representative of a Mensa Members Meeting going on here, so give me your best shot.

Nevermind. I get it. "Unit cohesion".

Wait, how about negative repping me over it? Wait, looks like you just did that.

 

[mikem317]

As soon as you join then you'll be able to remove the tampon because it will occur to you why we say that YOU JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND

Predictable response. Can't post up without the token insult preface, huh?

You can imagine all you want and be a baby about us not caring about your opinion but the fact is that YOU HAVE NEVER HAD TO DEPEND ON ANOTHER PERSON THAT YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW TO KEEP YOU ALIVE

That's not accurate. All of us have depended on somebody to keep us alive at one point of our lives.

That is the jist of it... and why should they change anything? to make you happy? Spill blood for your country and I'll let you shave Ru Paul's head and do fire team rushes all you want but I am sorry to say that people probably died because the gays I knew were well not manly enough for the military and sadly that costs lives

What about heterosexuals who were not "manly" enough? Why does sexual orientation have anything to do with it?

I'm looking at this through an individualist lens.

And as for your veiled anti- iraq comment.... GO SCREW PAL! People like you sit there and say, " I support the troops but not the war" and you don't realize that it demoralizes the troops! It's like saying I support you guys but I hope that the mission fails and all the fallen die for nothing... thats what I hear when idiots say stuff like what you said....

I have been disrespectful to you because you offended me with that cut and paste liberal bullshit about occupation versus liberation and I am sorry about that but stop being an AHOLE because nobody cares about your .02... I agree go talk to martlet and join... maybe it'll knock some sense into you...IMHO

I was asked if I'd serve. And I gave the parameters for which that would happen. Don't like it? Pound sand.

I've never said, "I support the troops but not the war." I've always held a steadfast appreciation for those that serve. I believe in a strong national defense, and I'd gladly be part of that. But I will not volunteer for a system that offensively engages other countries for political and economic gain. And nor should you.

 

[esswun]

"I've always held a steadfast appreciation for those that serve. I believe in a strong national defense, and I'd gladly be part of that. But I will not volunteer for a system that offensively engages other countries for political and economic gain.

Ok, that confuses me. Wouldn't those that serve according to you, serve the very system which you despise? If that's the case, how could you appreciate them? They're part of the problem aren't they? Huh?

And nor should you.

Why? Cause you don't believe in it?

 

[Martlet]

Might be some age demographics at work there... Just a thought...

You mean he's too young to enlist? That makes his opinion a little more applicable.

 

[Martlet]

I was asked if I'd serve. And I gave the parameters for which that would happen. Don't like it? Pound sand.

I bet.

Bet what? You come into a forum which clearly states is for military members and cry about a position most military members agree on. You refuse to serve, know nothing about service conditions, but think you have all the answers.

As I stated before. It seems to be the case with people who WON'T serve, but seem to think they know the best way TO serve.

Ok, that confuses me. Wouldn't those that serve according to you, serve the very system which you despise?

He already DOES serve that system. If you pay taxes, vote, or live in the US, you're participating in the system. People have "ideals" when it's convenient. Most people you meet who have a loud opinion on the service and never served "were going to serve", or "would serve if they hadn't <insert excuse here>". Again, it's a bunch of bullshit.

 

[mikem317]

Ok, that confuses me. Wouldn't those that serve according to you, serve the very system which you despise? If that's the case, how could you appreciate them? They're part of the problem aren't they? Huh?

Sorry, I can delineate between the parties that make the strategic decisions and those that carry them out. In brief, I'd be glad to serve if our foreign policy was based differently. Again, don't like it? Pound sand. I'm sure there would be many other men and women that would serve if this were the case.

Anyway, I said my piece. I'm glad there are a few other like minded individuals who share my perspective.

 

[Martlet]

Sorry, I can delineate between the parties that make the strategic decisions and those that carry them out. In brief, I'd be glad to serve if our foreign policy was based differently. Again, don't like it? Pound sand. I'm sure there would be many other men and women that would serve if this were the case.

Sure you would. I meet a dozen people like you every week. As the climate changes, so does their excuse.

That's your right, though. Don't serve. You can also have an opinion about service. You don't even have to realize it's worth shit, given that you have zero experience or understanding. We do. That's enough. I thought I knew what the military was all about, too. Until I joined.

 

[mikem317]

Bet what? You come into a forum which clearly states is for military members and cry about a position most military members agree on. You refuse to serve, know nothing about service conditions, but think you have all the answers.

As I stated before. It seems to be the case with people who WON'T serve, but seem to think they know the best way TO serve.

We're debating a policy that was instituted by President Clinton (read: Civilian).

Although I'd like to debate the merits of the policy, it's clear that other members of the board would rather negative rep me than maintain a modicum of respect and engage others in a civil tone in this thread. Having said this, I'll continue the dialogue in a non-Military Bubbas forum (e.g. Off-Topic) if a thread starts. It's not worth continuing it here. Thank you.

 

[Martlet]

You've likely been neg repped not for your position, but your presentation of it and your inability to realize or accept that you have zero experience upon which you can draw to make an informed opinion. I don't know. You'll have to ask them. I sign my reps.

If you continue the discussion in a non-military forum, you'll likely get more support. They, like you, don't know what they're talking about. In the military forum, most have personal experience upon which to draw. Odd that those with experience generally have a different opinion than you. Telling, isn't it?

We're debating a policy that was instituted by President Clinton (read: Civilian).

Although I'd like to debate the merits of the policy, it's clear that other members of the board would rather negative rep me than maintain a modicum of respect and engage others in a civil tone in this thread. Having said this, I'll continue the dialogue in a non-Military Bubbas forum (e.g. Off-Topic) if a thread starts. It's not worth continuing it here. Thank you.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

I signed mine.Also put the reason. I always sign mine and put the reason. I also very seldom give out Neg Reps but in this case you deserved it.

 

[Martlet]

What? You people are handing out negative rep and you didn't give me any?

I DEMAND TO BE QUADRUPLE NEGATIVE REPPED BY ALL OF YOU RIGHT NOW!

K, thanks.

I didn't hand out any neg rep. I'll be sure to include you the next time I do.

 

[cekim]

You mean he's too young to enlist? That makes his opinion a little more applicable.

No, my point was that age influences where you stand and how strongly you feel on this issue in various ways:

- Without trying to argue good or bad - generational opinions on the issue are shifting towards tolerance. So, that will show itself in the age demographics of those who served in the past, vs those who are serving now...

- Let's face it, we are animals and young men 18-25 are in their "breeding prime", so they like all animals are doing everything they can to make sure everyone knows they are ready, willing able and worthy to "breed". Translation - "young, dumb and full of cum". So, in any cross section of society, you are going to get strong feelings/opinions in this age group that will be replaced by apathy in a few years in many...

That's not intended as an insult, this function is essential to our species, just accepting the reality and pointing out that in analyzing opinions on this issue, age plays a very important factor in this instance as a function of the age of those who are in this situation as well as slow shifts in culture occurring along side military service...

I think it is fair to say that those that served WILL have a different opinion now in the context of these issues because they will project back to how they felt then whereas those who did not serve will project their current feelings on the issue to how they how they think they would have felt....

So, for those that served, you effectively have a "snapshot" in time of a personal belief system that evolves throughout our lives... We don't exist at one point on the spectrum of our beliefs - they shift over our life times...

 

[Martlet]

I think it is fair to say that those that served WILL have a different opinion now in the context of these issues because they will project back to how they felt then whereas those who did not serve will project their current feelings on the issue to how they how they think they would have felt....

So, for those that served, you effectively have a "snapshot" in time of a personal belief system that evolves throughout our lives... We don't exist at one point on the spectrum of our beliefs - they shift over our life times...

That's true, but not relevant to the discussion, really. Many of us are STILL serving, or did not serve that long ago. Additionally, the Military Times poll shows the majority of those serving STILL feel that way, and further showed many will get out if the policy changes.

When, and if, public opinion changes, so will the rules.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

What? You people are handing out negative rep and you didn't give me any?

I DEMAND TO BE QUADRUPLE NEGATIVE REPPED BY ALL OF YOU RIGHT NOW!

K, thanks.

Sorry Jim didn't know I should have handed them out to all.Next time I guess.

 

[esswun]

Bah, enough about this gay shit. I'm off to MEPS in two days for the second time in my life....at age 41! Didn't think I'd ever have the chance to be in uniform again. Say Martlet, I have a question. I served 9 years active duty and I'm headed back into the reserves. How many more years do I have to be enlisted to retire?(I didn't get around to asking my recruiter yet). Is it eleven or am I dreaming? Another vet I work with said I'd have to do double, 22 years in order to. That sounds insane. I'd be 63! Enlighten me please. Thanks.

 

[Martlet]

Bah, enough about this gay shit. I'm off to MEPS in two days for the second time in my life....at age 41! Didn't think I'd ever have the chance to be in uniform again. Say Martlet, I have a question. I served 9 years active duty and I'm headed back into the reserves. How many more years do I have to be enlisted to retire?(I didn't get around to asking my recruiter yet). Is it eleven or am I dreaming? Another vet I work with said I'd have to do double, 22 years in order to. That sounds insane. I'd be 63! Enlighten me please. Thanks.

Retirement is still 20 years. Who's your recruiter?

 

[wolf223]

*slightly off topic*

not to question the El Martlet

but you MAY have to serve more than the 11 years. i can't think of the regulation right now, but once i do, i'll PM it to you.

it's a wierd clause. i went for USA, to IRR, to USA to ARNG and my Basic Active Service Date has been adjusted - that's the gist of it.

they clump all of your years and active duty days together to come up with a new BASD (basic active service date). get a retirement points statement and it should tell you.

 

[Martlet]

*slightly off topic*

not to question the El Martlet

but you MAY have to serve more than the 11 years. i can't think of the regulation right now, but once i do, i'll PM it to you.

it's a wierd clause. i went for USA, to IRR, to USA to ARNG and my Basic Active Service Date has been adjusted - that's the gist of it.

they clump all of your years and active duty days together to come up with a new BASD (basic active service date). get a retirement points statement and it should tell you.

The BASD is generated on a MSO calculator, which all recruiters have. Your BASD gets adjusted, but it's simply your AD years less enlistment date. Your PEBD is changed as well, but it includes IRR time and isn't necessarily your retirement date.

You may be correct, but I haven't heard anything about it.

 

[wolf223]

shit, you are right.

the Pay Entry Base Date NEVER changes, the BASD does.

i have this all buried in a binder,

i have 13+ for retirement and 14+ for pay - if that makes any sense...

 

[Martlet]

shit, you are right.

the Pay Entry Base Date NEVER changes, the BASD does.

i have this all buried in a binder,

i have 13+ for retirement and 14+ for pay - if that makes any sense...

Your PEBD can change, too, if you have a break in service. If you signed up in 1990, went IRR in 1994, then got out in 1998, then came back in 2000, you would have served 4 years AD and 4 years IRR. When you came back in 2000, your PEBD would now be 1992 and your BASD would be 1996. Your MRD never used to change, but that can even change now.

It's pretty nutty.

 

[wolf223]

learned something new today

as for the subject at hand: keep it to yourself until the laws change.

me? i don't care, but if one "outs" themselves....

 

[jcetto0351]

I never neg repped anybody... I may be a jerk in my opinion but I'll listen to anybody who disagrees... I am just trying to be as enthusiastic in my beliefs as you are in yours!

 

[wolf223]

I never neg repped anybody... I may be a jerk in my opinion but I'll listen to anybody who disagrees... I am just trying to be as enthusiastic in my beliefs as you are in yours!

do tell?

you can neg rep me to death. i don't see how the CURRENT policy affects anything. go back and read my posts.



i'm feeling argumentative too.

me? let gays and lesbians serve under the current guidance. i.e. "DON'T ask & DON'T tell. -any questions?

the system is NOT broken, only the people are.

 

[Admin]

Most of the people who actually served or are currently serving all agree, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Enough of the back and forth.

It's all fun and cozy to say how things should be without actually strapping on a pack, walking a patrol in a hostile country, or lying low in an LP for days.

It's the way it is because it works. Period.