NRA supports violation of due process of rights

[Matt-CZ]

No additional laws are/were needed for the FL tragedy to be stopped. In fact less laws/regulations were needed. Local PD did not make arrests on the shooter because it was school policy to look the other way.

Maybe they could have done better. Maybe they should have done better. But pissed off students that hate their teachers, school, and fellow students are a dime a dozen. Most don't end up shooting up a school. Chasing down every disgruntled 16 year old can easily become a wild goose chase.

 

[Junior314]

Maybe they could have done better. Maybe they should have done better. But pissed off students that hate their teachers, school, and fellow students are a dime a dozen. Most don't end up shooting up a school. Chasing down every disgruntled 16 year old can easily become a wild goose chase.

He wasn't a disgruntled 16 year old. They were called to his home dozens and dozens of times. They dropped the ball, this is one of the instances where someone should have stepped in.

 

[wahsben]

They may be the 800lb. gorilla in the room but they sure let themselves be thrown around alot and unfortunately we're dragged along with them. Everytime they seem to take the right stand they turn around and do something like this. It's very disappointing to put it mildly.

 

[wahsben]

People who don't give an inch end up losing all their inches. The dumbass bill that just got passed by the House is nonsense. It does not do anything. Read it. Once again, all the screaming and pissing is pathetic. READ THE LANGUAGE! From what I have read, the NRA is not giving anything up. It's all smoke and mirrors. The idiot Governor of RI signed a "red flag" EO. Everyone crapped themselves. Read it. It says, "The RISP will do their jobs." Freaking literally. Nothing is being given up, no rights are being lost, no new restrictions are in place. FYI, the NRA has more balls than any organization I've ever seen, aside from the RI 2nd Amendment Coalition. However, they are also not dumb. And they play politics are necessary to do their job. Stop crying and pony up. How many times have you been to YOUR statehouse?

We've already given up many inches and yet it's never enough. GUN WATCH: Illustrated Guide to Gun Control How many more inches do you want to give?

 

[wahsben]

‘Gun Leaders’ Approve of Extreme Protection Orders Opposed by ACLU

 

[daveyburt]

People who don't give an inch end up losing all their inches. ...snip... And they play politics are necessary to do their job. Stop crying and pony up. How many times have you been to YOUR statehouse?

So, how does it support/represent their members to give the appearance that the NRA agrees with violations of rights, whether or not it comes to pass?
Typical Anti statement "Hey, even your NRA agrees that you should give up your property and rights without an actual violation of law - what's your problem?"

How exactly is that 'good'??
:/

 

[MGnoob]

I've lost count. Ultimately, it amounted to about nothing because Maura gives no shits about MA gun owners, and the legislature lacks anything resembling balls.




This. I wish I could downvote him, too.

I think the $10,000+ ive given to the nra is more effective than attending any rally or voting in MA... when the NRA does this kind of stuff it make me think my money would have been more effectively spent with GOA/goal... but they have gotten their fair share from me aswell..

 

[drgrant]

An ERPO would be fine if done properly, that isn't what anyone is suggesting. My new neighbor who I have spoken to exactly 3 times in the year they have lived here could file a complaint, and I would lose my rights and property until at some later time I have the burden of proof that I am not a threat.

How it should go; a complaint is made, police investigate (gather evidence) and only if they say to proceed, then WE (complaining party, police and the accused) get to stand before a judge and hash it out.

I've never heard of a single ERPO law proposal that wasn't garbage, frankly.

The other problem is the kopsch would "press the court button" 99 out of 100 times even on the flimsiest of claims unless you created some kind of a complex legal test
that they would have to satisfy in order to legally justify pressing the button. This is because of the 2000s "cuz liability" bullshit that invades everything we do these
days.

Without serious barriers in the way, ERPO is just taking the hell on earth that is a 209A and opening the scope of it- and if that law exists, judges are going to be
handing out that shit like candy. It's cheaper for them to deny someone their rights than the political repercussions of whatever happens if they "knew, but didnt do
anything" etc.

I can't see how ERPO could ever be implemented in a manner where it's unlikely to be misused.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

They may be the 800lb. gorilla in the room but they sure let themselves be thrown around alot and unfortunately we're dragged along with them. Everytime they seem to take the right stand they turn around and do something like this. It's very disappointing to put it mildly.

yes, an 800 pound gorilla that seems to, once in a while, flings its own shit at the members that feed it.... lol

-Mike

 

[MGnoob]

I see how none gun owners or owners who own few guns would think an ERPO isnt a huge burden when used properly.
The problem is it will be abuse.For an owner like me the cost and burden would be completely unreasonable, while not making anyone safer.

Also as others has said, as it stands now you just contact their CLEO and theyll yank your license for any remotely credible claim.

Thankfully my CLEO is a prime example of someone who doesn't get off on the power bestowed upon them. Not everyone is as lucky.

 

[JohnZ]

I've never heard of a single ERPO law proposal that wasn't garbage, frankly.

The other problem is the kopsch would "press the court button" 99 out of 100 times even on the flimsiest of claims unless you created some kind of a complex legal test
that they would have to satisfy in order to legally justify pressing the button. This is because of the 2000s "cuz liability" bullshit that invades everything we do these
days.

Without serious barriers in the way, ERPO is just taking the hell on earth that is a 209A and opening the scope of it- and if that law exists, judges are going to be
handing out that shit like candy. It's cheaper for them to deny someone their rights than the political repercussions of whatever happens if they "knew, but didnt do
anything" etc.

I can't see how ERPO could ever be implemented in a manner where it's unlikely to be misused.

-Mike

The only thing I can imagine helping is if the ro is denied, the accuser needs to have serious consequences. If the report is found to be false, the accuser needs to be put away for a long time without parole.

 

[Matt-CZ]

The only thing I can imagine helping is if the ro is denied, the accuser needs to have serious consequences. If the report is found to be false, the accuser needs to be put away for a long time without parole.

This won't happen. There exists a no man's land where evidence isn't sufficient to take action, but that doesn't necessarily mean the allegations are false. Unable to prove to whatever given standard is not the same as innocent. It's "Not Guilty", not "Innocent". OJ was "Not Guilty", but I don't think anyone would say he was proven innocent.

 

[MGnoob]

Jpk is right, even if you sue your ex and win, you lose...after paying her lawyers again and writing yourself a check for the damages.

 

[MGnoob]

The issue with DV laws is they want to expand it to intimate and non intimate partners, which leaves you open to trouble for every girl you have met in real life,virtual reality, or thought about while banging your current partner.

Its no wonder why we see the rise of the beta male.

 

[Dadstoys]

An ERPO would be fine if done properly, that isn't what anyone is suggesting. My new neighbor who I have spoken to exactly 3 times in the year they have lived here could file a complaint, and I would lose my rights and property until at some later time I have the burden of proof that I am not a threat.

How it should go; a complaint is made, police investigate (gather evidence) and only if they say to proceed, then WE (complaining party, police and the accused) get to stand before a judge and hash it out.

The problem is , no matter what the outcome of your appeal, you are NEVER going to get your guns back.
A couple of years in a bonded warehouse till you finally get your day in court would go far beyond any value the guns may have.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

STILL NO EXPLANATION! I'm waiting Mike. Downvote me all you want. The common knowledge is, "give them an inch, they will take a mile." We all get it. But be smart. Start using strategy and politics. Stop being stupid and holding an imaginary line. You will lose. Give them some token crap and move on. Shut your mouth, make connections and network in the dark like this is all supposed to work. I push all kinds of legislators and win. And I do it quietly with directed action. You want to win, get involved. Donate to the right folks, talk to the right people, become a player. Its how it works. If you do not get it, you don't deserve to make the decisions. Just like the people you deride. It is quiet, solid work. But it works. Nimrods.

 

[Junior314]

STILL NO EXPLANATION! I'm waiting Mike. Downvote me all you want. The common knowledge is, "give them an inch, they will take a mile." We all get it. But be smart. Start using strategy and politics. Stop being stupid and holding an imaginary line. You will lose. Give them some token crap and move on. Shut your mouth, make connections and network in the dark like this is all supposed to work. I push all kinds of legislators and win. And I do it quietly with directed action. You want to win, get involved. Donate to the right folks, talk to the right people, become a player. Its how it works. If you do not get it, you don't deserve to make the decisions. Just like the people you deride. It is quiet, solid work. But it works. Nimrods.

Put me in the "I wish there was a downvote button" crowd.

We got where we are at now by giving inches. Do your homework, examples of where and how your method has worked please?

 

[Waher]

Why give them an inch when they never give an inch? When has the left given us token crap? The left turns a ratchet to take away natural rights bit by bit and never allows it to be undone. They rig the rules of the game so that only they can win. The only way for us to win is say "F--- you and your rules" flip the table, and start playing by OUR own rules. Saying NO firmly is the way to deal with creeps.

Does letting a creep get a 'little win here or there' keep them from shoving their hands down a woman's skirt and trying to screw them? No it doesn't. Saying "No!" and if necessary slapping the ever living shit out of the creep on the other hand does work. Politicians are creeps that want to screw you. Treat them like creeps.

 

[timbo]

Damn...I was finally going to send the NRA some bucks to renew my membership mostly to piss on the libs but I guess not. I let my membership lapse after their shit for brains representative came to NH a few years back and totally f***ed up our chance for Constitutional Carry at the time. I’ll just keep sending money to the NHFC. At least they seem to have a pair.

 

[wahsben]

I seem to remember a group of people in the 1700's that decided that they were not going to give one more inch and they stood their ground. Although it may not work out the same for us it does show that there is a time to take a stand and not give one more inch.

 

[Dadstoys]

STILL NO EXPLANATION! I'm waiting Mike. Downvote me all you want. The common knowledge is, "give them an inch, they will take a mile." We all get it. But be smart. Start using strategy and politics. Stop being stupid and holding an imaginary line. You will lose. Give them some token crap and move on. Shut your mouth, make connections and network in the dark like this is all supposed to work. I push all kinds of legislators and win. And I do it quietly with directed action. You want to win, get involved. Donate to the right folks, talk to the right people, become a player. Its how it works. If you do not get it, you don't deserve to make the decisions. Just like the people you deride. It is quiet, solid work. But it works. Nimrods.

So you really do believe the "I swear, just the tip " line ?
We've given far more than we ever should have and have got nothing back , EVER.
You can try and bullshit someone who's been around guns for half a century.
Good luck pal.
What's been done to our rights just in my lifetime is obscene.
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that the other side is interested in "Compromise " ?
The goal has been the same as it has always been, Total disarmament.


You want to negotiate with that ?
Be my guest, just don't tell anyone your speaking for me.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

NRA's Gun Violence Restraining Order Support: A Good Move | National Review

This is the most respectable Conservative news organization in America. And while you may not like if they support the legislation, they even point out that it only encourages states to pass their own legislation. Why? Because this bills does nothing and does not infringe on anything. None of you appear to be able to read a sentence you don't like, even to find out it doesn't hurt you. YOU are the reason why YOU will lose your rights.

 

[robjax]

ERPO will never work in the gun owner's favor in Massachusetts. They will change the renewal..."have you ever had an ERPO enacted against you?" And answer truthfully under penalty of perjury....and in Mass that will be a lifetime disqualifier. No chief would ever sign off on an LTC and your guns would be history in a heartbeat.

This is feel good emotional BS. But I also do feel it is a compromise. I'm really sick of compromise. I think these shootings need to be investigated to the highest level. My guess is the DNC is behind it with the strings being pulled by Soros, osh#thead and the douchebag. You'll know I'm right when they pass on the death penalty of the parkland shooter and then when a dem gets in the oval office he'll be pardoned.

Everyone knows this is a violation of due process of law. This needs to be challenged. Anyone who supports this is a traitor to our constitution. But as NRA members we have a voice too. We need to contact them and let them know this isn't acceptable and we will not yield one more inch. In fact its time we start making up some ground.

But Trump is the one that screwed us.

 

[Junior314]

NRA's Gun Violence Restraining Order Support: A Good Move | National Review

This is the most respectable Conservative news organization in America. And while you may not like if they support the legislation, they even point out that it only encourages states to pass their own legislation. Why? Because this bills does nothing and does not infringe on anything. None of you appear to be able to read a sentence you don't like, even to find out it doesn't hurt you. YOU are the reason why YOU will lose your rights.

So here are my issues with it, within the article it admits even with the NRA being used as a partner to "draft" these laws it will only MINIMIZE the potential for abuse. Thereby admitting it will be abused and infringe on an individual's rights. And in the next paragrapgh admits that government has failed time and time again to protect the public. Solution? More intrusion by the government. It is not a gun problem and never has been.

Since you are so enlightened I will ask again. Can you cite an example where compromise on our end has amounted to anything in our benefit in return? Don't worry I'll wait...

 

[oppressed]

NRA's Gun Violence Restraining Order Support: A Good Move | National Review

This is the most respectable Conservative news organization in America. And while you may not like if they support the legislation, they even point out that it only encourages states to pass their own legislation. Why? Because this bills does nothing and does not infringe on anything. None of you appear to be able to read a sentence you don't like, even to find out it doesn't hurt you. YOU are the reason why YOU will lose your rights.

You just made Daveyburt's point for him.

Typical Anti statement "Hey, even your NRA agrees that you should give up your property and rights without an actual violation of law - what's your problem?"

Also, if it does nothing it doesn't need to exist.

Despite any reassurances, if one of the enhanced orders happens to you in Mass., your gun rights will be gone, along with your guns being lost to the bonded warehouse. Mass. will bastardize any acceptable version.

 

[drgrant]

NRA's Gun Violence Restraining Order Support: A Good Move | National Review

This is the most respectable Conservative news organization in America. And while you may not like if they support the legislation, they even point out that it only encourages states to pass their own legislation. Why? Because this bills does nothing and does not infringe on anything. None of you appear to be able to read a sentence you don't like, even to find out it doesn't hurt you. YOU are the reason why YOU will lose your rights.

You mean the same kind of "conservatives" that probably think its ok for cops to shoot a guy pulling his wallet out? Yeah, I really trust their judgment. These are the same "conservatives" that mostly pursed their
lips and said nothing when people like Jose Guerena got killed in their own home for basically nothing, that practically pop a boner every time Joe Arpaio appears on the screen, etc. Yeah I really trust them to protect
my civil rights....

This is the happy fun ball thing here, typical hardcore "conservatives" will rubber stamp this bullshit because far too many of them are like "I have nothing to fear, I'm a lawr abiding citizen" without fully thinking things
through. RKBA advocates would do well to understand that a lot of these people really aren't on their side.

Food for thought- I recently saw a thread on faceplant in a "conservative" group I am a member of, and like one guy liked the post where I was displeased at the fact that I thought a LEO pointing a loaded handgun
at a motorcyclist over a speeding infraction was over the line. Do you think those "conservatives" are going to come to your side if someone brings up a bogus ERPO/GVRO accusation against
you? I doubt it- they will sit there and hurr and durr while saying stupid shit like "well, he must have done something wrong to get that kind of response!!!"

GVRO/ERPO = f***ing salem witch trials all over again.

About the only hope of tamping these laws are if the non commie states adopt a bunch of framework that dramatically constrains these laws, of course depending on how the federal
law is laid out, it may prevent them from even doing that!

That judge can have the power to force the police to act. But that power isn’t unchecked. The gun owner can contest the claims against him, and he should be able to appeal any adverse ruling.

Lol "its not unchecked...." that's cute that they think that... so what exists to stop a judge from blindly rubber stamping every ERPO / GVRO request? If the NRA was serious about this, it would have established a
clear legal framework for this, which would include a multi pronged legal test which would require more than verbal statements made by a couple people. Can you imagine the bullshit if say, a few HOA retards conspire
conspire against a guy to disarm him? (amongst other nightmare scenarios, that's just the first one that comes off the top of my head).

Apparently the NRA somehow or another thinks that gnomish mysticism will prevent this from being abused the same way DV protection orders (under Lautenberg) are currently abused.

This is the same shit as a DV RO, its just been expanded to allow more people to come up with bullshit about how they think the guy with the guns is "out to get them" etc.

Also even if a gun owner can contest it, and is exonerated somehow- up front, you know damn well these things will be rubber stamped- and its likely to cost the accused thousands of
dollars to resolve it, and most people of modest means will likely lose most or all of their guns in the process. (because they'll have to sell them to pay legal fees, etc, assuming they can even
get the kopsch to transfer the guns to an FFL for sale, etc... )

If this gets passed this is a huge coup for antis- because it means thousands of people who fear abuse of the new system will basically completely hide the fact that they own guns, etc. More destruction of anything resembling
gun culture is right up their alley.

-Mike

 

[robjax]

This is BS. If you get pissed at your neighbor they go right to the court house and get the judge to issue the order. Then you have to hire a lawyer as you are not under arrest so they do not have to provide an attorney for you. How offing much is that going to cost? And in Mass you will lose anyway and they will still look to ban AR15's. So what did you win? Besides, no chief will ever give your license or guns back no matter the ruling.

At the very least if found in the favor of the gun owner then bring charges against the assures for false allegations. Why isn't that in the bill? Always sticking it to the gun owner.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

 

[drgrant]

This is BS. If you get pissed at your neighbor they go right to the court house and get the judge to issue the order. Then you have to hire a lawyer as you are not under arrest so they do not have to provide an attorney for you. How offing much is that going to cost? And in Mass you will lose anyway and they will still look to ban AR15's. So what did you win? Besides, no chief will ever give your license or guns back no matter the ruling.

At the very least if found in the favor of the gun owner then bring charges against the assures for false allegations. Why isn't that in the bill? Always sticking it to the gun owner.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

That's another big problem I have with these things... no penalty for abuse.

Also no ability to select a jury determination. As flakey as some juries are, they are a lot less likely to be concerned about "reputation" or "liability" because they have relative anonymity. at least that
option should be there as well.

-Mike

 

[robjax]

That's another big problem I have with these things... no penalty for abuse.

Also no ability to select a jury determination. As flakey as some juries are, they are a lot less likely to be concerned about "reputation" or "liability" because they have relative anonymity. at least that
option should be there as well.

-Mike

it seems they are doing this so the penalty for abuse should be severe. They are effing with someone's constitutional rights. That should not be taken lightly. But even if they put a penalty clause in this I doubt, at least in Mass, that anyone would be held accountable for abusing the law which couldn't be more unconstitutional.

What if I should out that I am going to get drunk and drive. Why don't they make a law that they can come and impound my car and give me ten days to appeal...this is so offing stupid.

I don't mean to rant but this one pisses me off so effing much.