non-Ltc holder handling pistols in Mass

[cptmax]

Can someone please refer me to a Mass law which governs

1. A non LTC holder handling a gun in a gun shop

2. An LTC holder, allowing a non LTC holder to shoot the LTC holders gun at a range

3. A non-LTC holder using a weapon in self defense inside of a residence

 

[Grendizer138]

One and two are bullshit policies. The third probably requires a shit load of specifics and legal discussion to answer.

 

[cptmax]

One and two are bullshit policies. The third probably requires a shit load of specifics and legal discussion to answer.

you mean that 1 and 2 are driven by the policies of the gun shop or range and that there is no Mass law on the subject? What would make the requirement to have an LTC to carry a firearm go away inside of a shop or a range? Dont take this the wrong way - im really trying to understand the law.

 

[namedpipes]

you mean that 1 and 2 are driven by the policies of the gun shop or range and that there is no Mass law on the subject? What would make the requirement to have an LTC to carry a firearm go away inside of a shop or a range? Dont take this the wrong way - im really trying to understand the law.

The laws were written by people with irrational fears, pressure from hyperactive constituents and have absolutely no connection whatsoever with common sense, morality or federal or constitutional law.

Gun laws in Mass are contradictory and senseless. You'll never understand them. If you do, worry.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

People introduce new people to guns all the time,.. no laws broken

 

[walter62]

1. is an individual gun store policy. But who wants to waste time w/ a non-LTC tirekicker or unqualified person?

2. never seen that enforced at a range and LOTS of 'newbies' w/ LTC 'mentors'

3. Depends on situation but legally frowned upon.

 

[Matt_SERE]

3. A non-LTC holder using a weapon in self defense inside of a residence

I would imagine it would end up somewhat like Bernhard Goetz, if it was truly self-defense.

Not guilty on attempted murder. Guilty with 1 year sentence for unlawful possession of a firearm. $$$$$$$$$ money on lawyers and defense of the crime and then again for the civil suit by the families of the injured/deceased.

Being MA, the process is the punishment. All people, that aren't gun nutz, remember is Goetz went to jail.

 

[Grendizer138]

you mean that 1 and 2 are driven by the policies of the gun shop or range and that there is no Mass law on the subject? What would make the requirement to have an LTC to carry a firearm go away inside of a shop or a range? Dont take this the wrong way - im really trying to understand the law.

Next time you go into a MA gun shop that wants to see your LTC before you handle a gun tell them you’re from NH and obviously don’t have an LTC, but if interested you’ll pay to ship it to your NH FFL.

If they decline they either don’t understand the law or they don’t want to be bothered.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It is allowed for instruction under the supervision of an FID or LTC holder as appropriate, with instruction being very broadly interpreted.

There is no such exemption for handling or firing machine guns in the presence of a MG license holder. I've never heard of a prosecution for this, but it became an issue and clubs started following it after the kid was kidded in a machine gun shoot at Westfield a bunch of years ago.

 

[MetalliCorey]

Are you thinking about 1) showing your gf around the gun shop 2) taking her for a date at the range and 3) worried if she used one of the house guns some day for self defense? But all the headache goes away if said person just gets their ltc... unless they just legaly cant...

 

[Len-2A Training]

Can someone please refer me to a Mass law which governs

1. A non LTC holder handling a gun in a gun shop

2. An LTC holder, allowing a non LTC holder to shoot the LTC holders gun at a range

3. A non-LTC holder using a weapon in self defense inside of a residence

1. No such law and it would also be legally covered by my answer to 2. Many gun shops don't want to be bothered serving those that they can't sell to, so they make their own "rules" (and sometimes lie and tell you that it is law).

2. MGL C. 140 S. 129C has exemptions to the law and this section covers your question.

(m) The temporary holding, handling or firing of a firearm for examination, trial or instruction in the presence of a holder of a license to carry firearms, or the temporary holding, handling or firing of a rifle or shotgun for examination, trial or instruction in the presence of a holder of a firearm identification card, or where such holding, handling or firing is for a lawful purpose;

3. Under MGL lthis is illegal and both the owner (illegal storage for allowing an unlicensed person access to the gun) and non-LTC holder (illegal possession) would usually be charged and convicted.

 

[240Geezer]

Can someone please refer me to a Mass law which governs

1. A non LTC holder handling a gun in a gun shop

2. An LTC holder, allowing a non LTC holder to shoot the LTC holders gun at a range

3. A non-LTC holder using a weapon in self defense inside of a residence

Oh the humanity.

 

[appraiser]

I'll go to #3 for discussion purposes.

You used to be able to have a gun in your home without a LTC or FID, the law was changed after an incident in Roxbury of all places.

So if an unlicensed person managed to get hold of a weapon that under the Mass safe storage law there will be some repercussions for the gun owner, you can take that to the bank, unless it was a case of the gun owner was incapacitated by some means while defending the home, and someone in the home picked up the gun and fired as a matter of self defense.

It would be an interesting case as Bruen clarified that a law abiding citizen has the right to use a gun for self protection inside and outside of the home.

It would also be a case where the D.A. would kick the can to a Grand Jury and you hope and pray the Grand Jury returns a no bill.

But the choice of weapon has very little to do with the legal jeopardy, it is all laid out in the 23 pages in this link if you have the time to read it.

https://www.mass.gov/doc/9260-self-defense-defense-of-another-defense-of-property/download

 

[Rat187]

I would imagine it would end up somewhat like Bernhard Goetz, if it was truly self-defense.

Not guilty on attempted murder. Guilty with 1 year sentence for unlawful possession of a firearm. $$$$$$$$$ money on lawyers and defense of the crime and then again for the civil suit by the families of the injured/deceased.

Being MA, the process is the punishment. All people, that aren't gun nutz, remember is Goetz went to jail.

 

[WJ406]

In response to question #3, it seems like one could use the necessity defense.

https://www.mass.gov/doc/9240-necessity/download

Not sure if there is case law discussing this but I’d say it would be a valid defense to prosecution for the possession charge (assuming the use of force was lawful).

 

[cptmax]

I'll go to #3 for discussion purposes.

You used to be able to have a gun in your home without a LTC or FID, the law was changed after an incident in Roxbury of all places.

So if an unlicensed person managed to get hold of a weapon that under the Mass safe storage law there will be some repercussions for the gun owner, you can take that to the bank, unless it was a case of the gun owner was incapacitated by some means while defending the home, and someone in the home picked up the gun and fired as a matter of self defense.

It would be an interesting case as Bruen clarified that a law abiding citizen has the right to use a gun for self protection inside and outside of the home.

It would also be a case where the D.A. would kick the can to a Grand Jury and you hope and pray the Grand Jury returns a no bill.

But the choice of weapon has very little to do with the legal jeopardy, it is all laid out in the 23 pages in this link if you have the time to read it.

https://www.mass.gov/doc/9260-self-defense-defense-of-another-defense-of-property/download

that is a very interesting link - i am going to read it. Is that some kind of training manual for AG's?

 

[cptmax]

1. No such law and it would also be legally covered by my answer to 2. Many gun shops don't want to be bothered serving those that they can't sell to, so they make their own "rules" (and sometimes lie and tell you that it is law).

2. MGL C. 140 S. 129C has exemptions to the law and this section covers your question.



3. Under MGL lthis is illegal and both the owner (illegal storage for allowing an unlicensed person access to the gun) and non-LTC holder (illegal possession) would usually be charged and convicted.

By "trial" i guess that means your eventual courtroom trial.

 

[dgrafton]

Everyone else posted good replies. I will just add that all those replies assume the non ltc holder is not a prohibited person.

 

[pastera]

that is a very interesting link - i am going to read it. Is that some kind of training manual for AG's?

Jury instructions
Pretty much statute and case law condensed down and in plain language
Unfortunately in Mass it's written by communists who hate freedom

 

[VetteGirlMA]

Can someone please refer me to a Mass law which governs

1. A non LTC holder handling a gun in a gun shop

2. An LTC holder, allowing a non LTC holder to shoot the LTC holders gun at a range

3. A non-LTC holder using a weapon in self defense inside of a residence

Here's my answer to number 3:

When it's life or death who cares? If I can give a loved one a weapon that they can use to save their life then I choose them. The best way to think about this is, what are you willing to go jail for because in Massachusetts you will be worse than Hitler no matter what you do.

 

[neum69]

you mean that 1 and 2 are driven by the policies of the gun shop or range and that there is no Mass law on the subject? What would make the requirement to have an LTC to carry a firearm go away inside of a shop or a range? Dont take this the wrong way - im really trying to understand the law.

Handling the firearm under close supervision of the owner isn’t “carrying.” Remember, if it’s not specifically outlawed, it’s legal.

 

[Picton]

Dont take this the wrong way - im really trying to understand the law.

Well, there's your problem, right here.

The gun laws here are not meant to be easy to understand.

 

[walter62]

They are written so an aspiring AG or other can find *something* to charge you with and the
undereducated people on the (grand) jury will naturally find you guilty.

Welcome to PROMA

 

[67ray]

I would imagine it would end up somewhat like Bernhard Goetz, if it was truly self-defense.

Not guilty on attempted murder. Guilty with 1 year sentence for unlawful possession of a firearm. $$$$$$$$$ money on lawyers and defense of the crime and then again for the civil suit by the families of the injured/deceased.

Being MA, the process is the punishment. All people, that aren't gun nutz, remember is Goetz went to jail.

Remember this happening when I lived in NY. Way back then, there was what we now call a meme going around school: It was "Don't Goetz mad Goetz even" with a reticle for the letter O - wish I had a copy of that one!

 

[Nightshift]

Everyone else posted good replies. I will just add that all those replies assume the non ltc holder is not a prohibited person.

Is it up to the LTC'd individual to determine if their guest is prohibited. I mean sometimes you just know, sometimes a person could be jacked up by a Mass-da-felony. Do I need to 3rd degree my newbies?