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NH: Lawmakers to defy House chamber gun ban

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DadaOrwell, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. DadaOrwell

    DadaOrwell

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  2. Drix

    Drix

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    "Laws are for thee, not for me" to the next level.
     
  3. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    If I remember correctly the ban was not based on law but because the house could set "rules" on the use of the building.... eg, this ban isn't in RSA explicitly....
     
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  4. Oldarmy

    Oldarmy

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    Ban bans...…………...
     
  5. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    Yeah, this “ban” has no lawful basis outside of the House itself saying “these here are the rules for us”.

    It’s kinda like the “no guns” signs in the mall...

    ETA: but, of course, any of us little people found in violation can reasonably expect to get utterly and completely f***ed as a result.
     
  6. jpk

    jpk

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    The ban has no lawful basis for the house either.

    The constitution allows the house to establish its own rules wrt process and punish folks that are disruptive

    It does not allow for the house to ban concealed carry any more than they could ban people from wearing blue jeans
     
  7. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    So, with that being given, whats the worst that could happen to the protesters? they could get escorted out?

    -Mike
     
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  8. jpk

    jpk

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  9. DarthRevan

    DarthRevan Instructor NES Member

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    But what's the penalty? Whatever the speaker decides?
     
  10. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    Given that the Constitution gives the House the power to punish, by imprisonment, anyone found guilty of “disrespect to the House”, I would say they do, in fact, have the lawful authority to ban firearms and blue jeans. All they have to do is say that showing up in denim is disrespectful, and BAM. You’re in jail.

    Sounds an awful lot like a ban to me.
     
  11. jpk

    jpk

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    Any attempt to ban blue jean would be baseless

    Similarly for anyone CCW

    You MIGHT be able to make an argument for someone open carrying a 91/30 in the gallery but........
     
  12. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    They have the authority to imprison anyone they find to be disrespectful, contemptuous, or disruptive. They get to decide what’s disrespectful, contemptuous, or disruptive.

    See where this is going?

    If they come out and say “no denim allowed”, and you wear your blue jeans anyway....guess what? You’ve just been disrespectful. And/or contemptuous. And now they have the lawful authority to imprison you.

    Now substitute “firearms” for denim.

    They might not have the lawful authority to directly ban firearms, or denim, but they sure as shit have a way to make it happen.
     
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  13. jpk

    jpk

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    They actually dont get to define societal values and accepted norms

    Furthermore they could no more ban/consider a hidden tattoo underneath a shirt/sweater to be disruptive/disrespectful or contemptuous than they could a concealed handgun.

    If its not visible/audible etc then its outside of their purview
     
  14. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    Sure thing, bud.

    Good luck with that.
     
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  15. jpk

    jpk

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    The house could no more ban women (or men if thats your thing) from wearing a thong underneath other clothing than they can ban CCW because none of the above in any way shape or form constitutes a disruption, disrespect etc of the processes/business of the house

    Now, if a person were to begin waving either of the above around then thats another story
     
  16. rwl1955

    rwl1955

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    Do they wand you or force you thru a metal detector?
     
  17. rwl1955

    rwl1955

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    Wow, what a POS ! My Lai?
    "
    Before and after debate Wednesday, some opponents of the ban vowed to independently ignore it if it passed, but Monday’s letter was the first concerted and public effort to do so.

    In laying out their case, the representatives invoked the June 2017 shooting at a Congressional baseball practice in Alexandria, Va., in which a politically-motivated gunman took aim at Republican legislators, and critically wounded then-House Majority Whip Steve Scalise.

    And they argued that while the House has the ability to pass rules, it “does not have the authority to strip Representatives of their rights.”

    Any rule that does that, the lawmakers wrote, is a violation of lawmakers’ “natural rights” and should be ignored.

    “There are times when the acts of a majority are so repugnant to the dignity of the individual that the act itself is cast asunder,” the representatives wrote. “The act removes itself from the realm of legitimate government authority and is to be ignored, if not openly held in disdain.”

    But Shurtleff rejected the premise, declaring the House rule in line with other forms of gun restrictions.

    “The Supreme Court’s already held under the Second Amendment that certain bodies have the right to ban firearms, including legislators and jails, courts and airplanes,” he said. “So that’s already been adjudicated and there’s already court decisions on that. We don’t really follow natural rights as an argument.”

    In their letter, the representatives made reference to the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, in which hundreds of unarmed civilians were murdered by U.S. soldiers. The incident provided a teaching moment for disobeying “unlawful orders,” the New Hampshire lawmakers argued.

    And they said their resistance to the rule was meant as a deterrent for would-be shooters. "
     
  18. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    You say they can’t, and yet they have.

    Also, btw...they voted on adding a dress code two years ago.

    With the NH Constitution being as vaguely written as it is, there really isn’t much of anything that is outside of their lawful authority to regulate via the House (or Senate) rules.
     
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  19. jpk

    jpk

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    Just because you ran that stop sign this morning doesnt make it legal

    The NH constitution isnt vague.....you're just being ignorant
     
  20. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    If it isn’t vague, then show me where it limits, or defines, what constitutes disrespect to the House.
     
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  21. Climbnsink

    Climbnsink

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    Culture matters more than the law. Control the culture control who gets punished and for what. Remember that next time someone is telling you to be tolerant of non Christian, non American values.
     
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  22. jpk

    jpk

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    This is where it becomes clear who didnt pay attention in school and who did......

    Is english your second language or are you going to declare that the sky is green next?

    Absent one of the above ACTIONS against one or more of its members OR an action that OBSTRUCTS the deliberation of the legislative body a person or persons cannot be found guilty of any of your percieved thought crimes.

    A person who sits quietly in the gallery while wearing a thong under their pants/skirt or who similarly has a tatoo that is not visible can no more be found guilty of any of the above than a person who has a concealed handgun under clothing
     
  23. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    Look, dude. I’m not saying that banning thongs or jeans or guns is in any way effective, smart, or something they ought to be doing.

    BUT, if they say something is against the rules, and you do it anyway, that is, by definition contemptuous behavior, which is disrespectful to the House, which is punishable by imprisonment, which means that basically whatever the hell they say is banned in there, is banned.


    Will they know? Not unless you’re stupid about it. But that doesn’t change the fact that, like I said, they ultimately do have the lawful authority to do this.

    ETA: good luck convincing the security guard that they didn’t have the lawful authority to ban firearms while he’s escorting you out, btw.
     
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  24. jpk

    jpk

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    None of the above is the question

    The question revolves around whether or not the NH constitution grants the House the power/authority to ban firearms from the house floor/gallery and its clear that it doesnt

    The NH Constitution doesnt even grant the House the power/auth to pass a BILL to do that.....

    2A has equally clear language that affirms this......

    Do you see any exceptions/language that provides for the legislature to contradict this?

    Nope
     
  25. atmay

    atmay NES Member

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    So, does 2a protect my right to wear a thong and blue jeans too? Or.....
     
  26. jpk

    jpk

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    Only if your property requires defending.......

    If YOU are wearing a thong I have a funny feeling that most would consider you surrendering them to a robber to be an offensive move..........
     
  27. Dadstoys

    Dadstoys NES Member

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    I don't think any lawmaker is being escorted out.
    That would open a box of shit that no one wants to get into.
     
  28. Bt74

    Bt74 NES Member

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    Not a lawyer, but the vagueness of the rules would be considered "arbitrary and capricious" if challenged in court.
     
  29. DadaOrwell

    DadaOrwell

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    One of the state reps who i think promised to keep carrying ... has reportedly now been banned from exercising his first amendment rights as well. But of course that is making the authoritarians look more and more like the bad guys.

    From state rep John Burt's facebook post 1/17 roughly:

    "Attention Pro Second Amendment folks. I need help. I need people with video cameras to help me. Please Share.

    Anti Gun bills are coming to the House Criminal Justice committee and the Chair today has BANNED me from taking videos or photos from my seat. See video below.

    I told him I will still take them. He went and brought the Speaker in to the committee which the Speaker said, If I keep taking pictures the committee can and will take a vote to remove me by force if needed.

    The chair last term sat next to me and took several pictures. Picture 2 - 6 are the pictures I took this week. Many Reps takes pictures. This is to stop the Anti Gun bills from being posted on Youtube for the NH citizens to see. Please help me.

    Do not get me wrong, I like the Chair and the Speaker but what they are doing is wrong. This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone being banned from taking a video or pictures at the NH State House.

    Here is the video of the vote. Watch what Rep Welch said at minute 4:40. Thank you Michael Yakubovich for the video.
    View:
    View: https://youtu.be/n8FUxkGGQoU
     
  30. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    I know Michael Yakubovich. He grew up under the Soviet Russian thumb. The prog/libs should not underestimate him. He knows what it's like to live in a communist society. We need a lot more of people like him in the house.
     
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