National Reciprocity...Does it have a chance?

[ChargingCharlie]

But that's the problem... You ask for an orange, they give you herpes...

That's how government works.

Best quote of the whole thread!

 

[Terminator03]

We don't care about your regional problem. Your problem does not exist in the overwhelming majority of the country and that same overwhelming majority will fight tooth and nail to keep the feds out of our gun laws.

So sorry. Sucks to be you.

Guess what pal, you are on Northeast shooters, so if you don't care about our regional problem, then wtf are you on this site for? What's the matter, don't they have an Ohio shooters site you can grandstand on?

 

[xtry51]

Guess what pal, you are on Northeast shooters, so if you don't care about our regional problem, then wtf are you on this site for? What's the matter, don't they have an Ohio shooters site you can grandstand on?

I'm pretty sure there's some Obama style constitutional forum that you could be posting on too, claiming to be an expert on how certain things aren't rights because they're not specifically enumerated, rather than posting here, but alas we appear to be stuck with you, so don't get your panties in a bunch because Jose is better off than us.

 

[DoubleDoeHoe]

Guess what pal, you are on Northeast shooters, so if you don't care about our regional problem, then wtf are you on this site for? What's the matter, don't they have an Ohio shooters site you can grandstand on?

The solution to our regional problem is simple. Fight or Flight. Deval just got re-elected and OH YA so did Choakley how's that fight going anyway? I will be out soon just don't know if it will be out of this crap hole state or the region entirely. Thanks again Public Union backstabbers. I hope he takes your pension away now even though you got him re-elected.

 

[Terminator03]

Right and you want to make it better for you at the expense of making it worse for Jose and the residents of 45 or so other states. That is mighty progressive of you. We are better off having states compete, not just at gun laws(which there shouldn't be any) but at everything, taxes, right to work laws, etc. Let states set their own laws, collect residents and businesses according to how smart/stupid they are. We still have the option of moving freely around the country.

Well apparently you don't have a wife, family, business, or any other factors to prevent you from moving across the country just so you can have less gun regs., so have at it since you can, but I, as well as most others on here don't have that ability, so we would like to fix, or amend the existing laws so that we can live our lives without having to uproot every time we don't like a particular law.

 

[Terminator03]

I'm pretty sure there's some Obama style constitutional forum that you could be posting on too, claiming to be an expert on how certain things aren't rights because they're not specifically enumerated, rather than posting here, but alas we appear to be stuck with you, so don't get your panties in a bunch because Jose is better off than us.

First of all, Obama can go f***k himself, and I never claimed to be an expert on the Constitution. Why would I, there are plenty of those experts in this thread already. I also wasn't getting my panties in a bunch about Jose, I'm just tired of his bs grandstanding about what a utopia Ohio is. So the gun laws may be a little more lenient, that certainly wouldn't make me want to move to that dogpatch area!

 

[Climbnsink]

I have all those things. Reality is the Northeast is a lefty enclave. If it is to change it will take decades. For the time being I'm stuck here as well, I accept MA for what it is, and I don't see salvation in making other people's gun laws worse. Eventually we will move partly because of restrictive laws in everything, partly because the Northeast is financially toasted, roasted and overdone. The whole country may get poorer but NE and CA and some other special places will be the poorest of them all. The country is sorting people need to pick their state. Look at demographic data, read the where to live forums. Lefties from red states are moving to MA because it is solid blue. We are outvoted(and will be for a lifetime or two) tolerate the policies they choose for you or leave. And the other side will never see the error of their ways and embrace freedom, when their policies prove to be failures they will believe in them more so and ratchet them up a notch or three. Love MA for all the blue splendor or leave it.

Well apparently you don't have a wife, family, business, or any other factors to prevent you from moving across the country just so you can have less gun regs., so have at it since you can, but I, as well as most others on here don't have that ability, so we would like to fix, or amend the existing laws so that we can live our lives without having to uproot every time we don't like a particular law.

 

[Jose]

Really? Then why are you on this forum every day?

Nut busting aside...this isn't just a problem in the NE. Even in your more free state of OH, you still have to get a permit and you still have more "rules" than other states with regards to that permit. Until you have constitutional carry your in the same shit creek as us...just in a nicer boat.

Because we here in Ohio work to fix our laws and need no help from the feds. Take a cue from that.

Before 2004 there was no CCW in Ohio. Then the law that was passed sucked big time. In seven years most of the ridiculous restrictions have been eliminated and by the end of this legislative session carrying in ANY establishment that serves liquor (not just restaurants) will be legal as well as getting rid of a bunch of bullshit rules about how to transport a loaded handgun in a car.

We also have enacted castle doctrine, civil immunity from justified shootings, and state-level pre-emption of gun control laws or ordinances.

In the end we are left with a CCW law that is, with a few minor differences, pretty much the same as Florida's.

And maybe you don't seem to get the point that we, like most of the country, don't need a license or depend on some cop's whim to keep and bear arms? If you think Ohio guns laws suck, or are marginally better than MA, you are sadly mistaken. The fact of the matter is that our gun laws are pretty much in line with those in some of the most admired "free" states.

Yeah, constitutional carry would be great. But it's not going to realistically happen in my lifetime.

If you want to see what can happen when the fed.gov starts getting in the business of dictating the bearing of arms to state residents, look up Barbara Boxer's bill from earlier this year.

Fix your own state. Leave the rest of us alone, we will fix ours.

OBTW, you don't know shit about what happens during traffic stops here when you are armed. I can tell you that from personal experience.

 

[Jose]

Well apparently you don't have a wife, family, business, or any other factors to prevent you from moving across the country just so you can have less gun regs., so have at it since you can, but I, as well as most others on here don't have that ability, so we would like to fix, or amend the existing laws so that we can live our lives without having to uproot every time we don't like a particular law.

Like I told you before. Fix your own mess AT THE STATE LEVEL. We will not accept intrusions from other states via the federal government to make your life potentially easier at the expense of our freedoms and self rule.

 

[NFD9]

And you apparently didn't read anything I wrote, did you? If you did, you'd see where I said I would only be for it if it meant that if you were licensed that any state would accept that license...no further restrictions. IMO not state should be able to put restrictions on rights given to us by the constitution.

Rights given to us by who?

 

[cekim]

Rights given to us by who?

Facepalm...

And you apparently didn't read anything I wrote, did you? If you did, you'd see where I said I would only be for it if it meant that if you were licensed that any state would accept that license...no further restrictions. IMO not state should be able to put restrictions on "unalienable," natural rights "endowed by our creator."

FIFY

 

[cockpitbob]

Once you give congress the right to legislate something, that something is no longer a right.

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Rights given to us by who?

Facepalm...


FIFY

I stand corrected...I shouldn't have said "given to us by the Constitution" I should have said "recognized in the Constitution". Some people would also question the "God given right" statement since some people don't believe there is a God. The right to self defense is a right that wasn't given to us by anyone or anything...it's just common sense.

 

[NFD9]

I stand corrected...I shouldn't have said "given to us by the Constitution" I should have said "recognized in the Constitution". Some people would also question the "God given right" statement since some people don't believe there is a God. The right to self defense is a right that wasn't given to us by anyone or anything...it's just common sense.

Sounds about right to me.

 

[Terminator03]

We don't care about your regional problem. Your problem does not exist in the overwhelming majority of the country and that same overwhelming majority will fight tooth and nail to keep the feds out of our gun laws.

So sorry. Sucks to be you.

I still think that you are too focused on the small picture of what I am trying to say. The reciprocity thing would benefit ALL of us - even those of you in the so called free states. I'm not necessarily saying that the feds need to be steering the ship, but the system as it stands now is almost as restrictive to you, as it is to us in MA, once you leave your little microcosm. Sure, I could move to cow country, VT, and not even need a LTC, but what happens once I pass that imaginary line they call the state border? Guess what, we are back in the same boat again - unless we jump through the hoops, and pay hundreds of dollars to obtain several more licenses from other states just to have that "right" that VT felt we should have without a license. As I keep stating, I am not looking for bigger government necessarily - just trying to find a solution for this situation to be closer to the reciprocity that we all enjoy with driver's licenses. How exactly do you think it's going to spoil your personal utopia of gun laws? Every state has it's own specific laws with regard to driving, yet the licenses are reciprocal, so how would this differ?

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Because we here in Ohio work to fix our laws and need no help from the feds. Take a cue from that.

I never once said I would condone the government restricting other states laws. How would the act of states accepting licenses from other states affect there current structure in a negative way? I am, and have been, talking about nothing more than reciprocity to the letter of it's definition.

Before 2004 there was no CCW in Ohio. Then the law that was passed sucked big time. In seven years most of the ridiculous restrictions have been eliminated and by the end of this legislative session carrying in ANY establishment that serves liquor (not just restaurants) will be legal as well as getting rid of a bunch of bullshit rules about how to transport a loaded handgun in a car.

We also have enacted castle doctrine, civil immunity from justified shootings, and state-level pre-emption of gun control laws or ordinances.

In the end we are left with a CCW law that is, with a few minor differences, pretty much the same as Florida's.

And that is awesome, I never said otherwise. What I said is that as long as you still have restrictions in place you are still in a fight and should care about it on a national level

And maybe you don't seem to get the point that we, like most of the country, don't need a license or depend on some cop's whim to keep and bear arms? If you think Ohio guns laws suck, or are marginally better than MA, you are sadly mistaken. The fact of the matter is that our gun laws are pretty much in line with those in some of the most admired "free" states.

Again...I never said your laws suck or are in-line with MA. Read my posts again.

Yeah, constitutional carry would be great. But it's not going to realistically happen in my lifetime.

I bet people in AZ and WI felt the same as you at one point too and look at them now.

If you want to see what can happen when the fed.gov starts getting in the business of dictating the bearing of arms to state residents, look up Barbara Boxer's bill from earlier this year.

Fix your own state. Leave the rest of us alone, we will fix ours.

Again...re-read my posts. I never once condoned any negative law changes in ANY states

OBTW, you don't know shit about what happens during traffic stops here when you are armed. I can tell you that from personal experience.

I based my comment on this:

Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
If a person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun as a CCW licensee, whether in a motor vehicle or not, the person shall inform the law enforcement ofcer that the person is carrying a concealed handgun, keep his or her hands in plain sight at all times and not touch the concealed handgun, unless in accordance with directions given by any law enforcement officer. Violating this section of law is a first degree misdemeanor, and in addition to any other penalty handed down by a court, shall result in the suspension of the person’s concealed handgun license for one year.

What "happens during traffic stops here when you are armed" and what the law states is apparently two different things.

You still didn't answer my original question...If you don't give a shit about us and our commie NE laws, then why do you spend so much time on this forum commenting on them? Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Terminator03]

I never once said I would condone the government restricting other states laws. How would the act of states accepting licenses from other states affect there current structure in a negative way? I am, and have been, talking about nothing more than reciprocity to the letter of it's definition.



And that is awesome, I never said otherwise. What I said is that as long as you still have restrictions in place you are still in a fight and should care about it on a national level


Again...I never said your laws suck or are in-line with MA. Read my posts again.


I bet people in AZ and WI felt the same as you at one point too and look at them now.


Again...re-read my posts. I never once condoned any negative law changes in ANY states


I based my comment on this:



What "happens during traffic stops here when you are armed" and what the law states is apparently two different things.

You still didn't answer my original question...If you don't give a shit about us and our commie NE laws, then why do you spend so much time on this forum commenting on them? Inquiring minds want to know

I keep asking the same thing, but get no response. Is it just for the purpose of rubbing our noses in it?

You bring up a good question wrt traffic stops in this area (even though it is a bit of a sidetrack). I asked this question during my LTC class, as was told that you are better served by not bringing it up at all - unless specifically asked by the officer. Kind of like the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy for the gays. If you "volunteer" the information that you are armed, it can/will escalate the routine traffic stop into a much more stressful, and time consuming affair, even if everything is in order, and to the letter of the law. His advice was to keep your mouth shut, hand over your documentation, take you ticket, and go on your merry way. You can not/should not lie if asked directly, because that WILL get you jammed up in a big way.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

From what I understand of our current law it is not required of us to inform them like it is in some other states. I personally would only inform them if I was point blank asked, or if I was asked to step out of the vehicle. The reason why I would inform them if I was asked to step out of a vehicle isn't so much because I think I should have to, it's more because I don't want some rookie cop seeing it, freaking out, and drawing a gun on me.

 

[Jose]

What smcnally and Terminator still fail to grasp is that lack of reciprocity is a regional problem and a small region at that.

I have two licenses, Ohio and New Hampshire. All told I spent something like $200 for both (NH being $20 of that) including the Ohio-mandated class for first time issue. With them I get to carry in 34 states. I can drive from Ohio to Florida and carry legally in every state along the way. I can legally possess firearms in something like the 40 to 42 states that don't require any license for posession and use.

This national reciprocity is mostly a non-issue to people who live outside the northeast.

What you two also seem to fail to grasp is the fact that driver license reciprocity is not mandated by DC. It is a STATE LEVEL AGREEMENT. Just like CCW reciprocity. States are free to drop out of the national driver license agreement and compact. So if you want to force states to accept handgun licenses from everyone, you clearly are advocating for federal intervention in an area where they have no constitutional or legal standing. And despite your best wishes, federal intervention in CCW WILL NOT END WELL FOR ANYONE.

Are you two really that naive?

 

[Climbnsink]

I smell liberal whine. He doesn't have valid voice, he shouldn't be allowed to speak...

 

[xtry51]

I smell liberal whine. He doesn't have valid voice, he shouldn't be allowed to speak...

+1

 

[Jose]

What "happens during traffic stops here when you are armed" and what the law states is apparently two different things.

What you imagine the law requires you to do and how things actually happen in real life ARE two different things.

Where you do get stupid stuff like hold out your hands out the window? I keep my hands on the steering wheel until the cop asks me to get something.

I know where you are coming from. You guys are so terrified of what a cop would do if you told them that you had a pistol on you that you cannot comprehend the fact that most cops outside your part of the world really don't give a shit as long as you are legal. Ohio cops know to expect being told such things like "hi officer, I need to inform you that I have an LTC and I am carrying a pistol". So they don't freak at the mention of the word "gun".

Not once in the three times I have dealt with police on the road have things turned nasty or unprofessional. Once I got a ticket, once I got a warning, and once a statie pulled up behind me to warn other traffic of my truck blowing steam buy the side of the road. All three times I was armed and all three times that fact was a non-issue immediately after telling the officer.

It is awfully nice of you to presume to know how onerous the requirement to inform in, when frankly you know nothing about how police in other parts of the country react to law abiding gun owners.

You still didn't answer my original question...If you don't give a shit about us and our commie NE laws, then why do you spend so much time on this forum commenting on them? Inquiring minds want to know

When your lack of reciprocity spurs you to call for federal interventions where it doesn't belong and where it would affect me, it does become my business.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

I smell liberal whine. He doesn't have valid voice, he shouldn't be allowed to speak...

Who said that? I'm reading and listening to every single post he's written in reply to this thread. I also agree with a lot of what he's said here, but I think we are arguing to different things or that I fail to understand the way something like this could work. I'm just busting his balls about his contestant declaration about how much we suck and that he doesn't care about us or our laws here while still participating here on a daily basis.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

What you imagine the law requires you to do and how things actually happen in real life ARE two different things.

Where you do get stupid stuff like hold out your hands out the window? I keep my hands on the steering wheel until the cop asks me to get something.

I know where you are coming from. You guys are so terrified of what a cop would do if you told them that you had a pistol on you that you cannot comprehend the fact that most cops outside your part of the world really don't give a shit as long as you are legal. Ohio cops know to expect being told such things like "hi officer, I need to inform you that I have an LTC and I am carrying a pistol". So they don't freak at the mention of the word "gun".

Not once in the three times I have dealt with police on the road have things turned nasty or unprofessional. Once I got a ticket, once I got a warning, and once a statie pulled up behind me to warn other traffic of my truck blowing steam buy the side of the road. All three times I was armed and all three times that fact was a non-issue immediately after telling the officer.

It is awfully nice of you to presume to know how onerous the requirement to inform in, when frankly you know nothing about how police in other parts of the country react to law abiding gun owners.


When your lack of reciprocity spurs you to call for federal interventions where it doesn't belong and where it would affect me, it does become my business.

In all fairness you also have no idea how the cops are out here either. Boston and other big cities may be bad but there are plenty of places in MA where the cops 100% support CCW. I have friends that are cops and they were the ones that pushed me to get off my ass and get licensed. Our lack of reciprocity means shit to me...a UT or FL non-res permit takes care of it for me. I'm looking at this as a country-wide issue. The bottom line, IMO, is that all the states need to get together and come up with something that works.

 

[Terminator03]

This is in response to Jose's previous post, which I forgot to quote:
I don't think it's so much being naive, as being inquisitive. I am most definitely not an expert in this area, but as mentioned above, the driver's license reciprocity agreement that you say is at the state level, did not change the fact that you don't need insurance in some states, can drive at 14 in others, etc., so I guess I am failing to understand why this would need to be any different? BTW, I did not realize that you have that much reciprocity with just 2 LTC's, that is awesome. For me, it would require several just to cover most of the New England states, let alone the rest of the country. I can see from that perspective why this discussion would really not be of much value to you.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

BTW, I did not realize that you have that much reciprocity with just 2 LTC's, that is awesome. For me, it would require several just to cover most of the New England states, let alone the rest of the country. I can see from that perspective why this discussion would really not be of much value to you.

With a MA LTC and a Non-Res UT permit you can carry in 33 states

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mass, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, & Wyoming

 

[Terminator03]

With a MA LTC and a Non-Res UT permit you can carry in 33 states

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mass, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, & Wyoming

I knew about the Utah permit, but most of those states would be of no use to me, since I would only drive mostly in the New England region, and if flying, would more likely need coverage for places like FLA, and CA, which are not included. That is why I haven't applied for any other permits yet. Most useful to me would be CT, since I am located less than 10 minutes from the border, and NH, because we have family there, and are driving up there several times a year. I know VT doesn't have a specific LTC, but would the MA LTC cover me there?

 

[Jose]

I know VT doesn't have a specific LTC, but would the MA LTC cover me there?

Gun licenses do not exist in Vermont. Anyone who is not a prohibited person (by US and VT definitions) can legally own, possess, carry openly or concealed, and use firearms while in VT regardless of one's state of residence.

The majority of the country is the same way except for needing a license to conceal.

 

[Terminator03]

Gun licenses do not exist in Vermont. Anyone who is not a prohibited person (by US and VT definitions) can legally own, possess, carry openly or concealed, and use firearms while in VT regardless of one's state of residence.

The majority of the country is the same way except for needing a license to conceal.

Thanks for verifying that. I thought so, but could not remember for sure.

 

[JimB]

Terrible idea.

are you joking or serious... please explain