Multi-Purpose CMP/Highpower Rifle

[kingfisher]

I've been shopping for my first AR-15, but then I shot a match, and I liked it, so now my specs have changed. I'm wondering if I can get a rifle that conforms to CMP/Highpower rules but also have it be possible to change components for other uses.

I'm thinking about an A4 upper so that I could remove the carry handle and install a scope on a quick detach mount for non-competition shooting. I read in another thread that a carry handle requires an F marked front sight base to be compatible. What I don't know is if a typical scope mount would be tall enough that the fixed front sight would not be in the way when looking through the scope.

I'm also wondering if it would be possible/practical to remove the required A2 stock and replace it with an adjustable cheek weld stock for use with the scope. I don't know if I'd want to do that, but how much work would it be? I know I could get a second lower, but is it not advisable to switch the stock back and forth because there's a staked nut or something that should be permanent holding the stock on, or is it no big deal?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

 

[jasons]

Are you looking to shoot only CMP matches or do you plan to shoot NRA matches as well? Are you interested in / serious about legging out?

 

[kingfisher]

Are you looking to shoot only CMP matches or do you plan to shoot NRA matches as well? Are you interested in / serious about legging out?

Sorry, even though I was a rifleman in the Marine Corps, I'm new at this!

I know the rules between the two are slightly different, but the equipment requirements are very similar. I guess I'd say NRA... the matches they have at Nashua Fish and Game Association, but I'd be willing to travel some too.

I'll have to do some research because I don't know what "legging out" means. I'm competitive by nature and have been shooting handgun action sports more than anything else recently, but mostly I'd like to sharpen my rifle skills and have some fun.

 

[jasons]

Sorry, even though I was a rifleman in the Marine Corps, I'm new at this!

So was I and so was I.

I know the rules between the two are slightly different, but the equipment requirements are very similar. I guess I'd say NRA... the matches they have at Nashua Fish and Game Association, but I'd be willing to travel some too.

There are NRA matches and CMP matches. As you mentioned the rules and equipment are very similar with one major difference - NRA rules allow a match rifle category among others... If you were interested in shooting a match rifle you could have one built up but then throw a scope on it for fun, or even build up a rifle with a scope and shoot F-class. CMP is service rifle only, so none of those are an option if you actually wanted to compete. (A lot of clubs will let match rifle shooters shoot leg matches if there's room on the line but they can't win and the scores can't be submitted.) It sounds like you probably want to shoot service rifle, which is awesome. We always need more service rifle shooters!

If you decide to start with service rifle you ~could~ get a match grade removable carry handle sight and use that. Many good shooters do, including the AMU guys last I knew, but the majority of us go with a standard A2 style sight. (For me it's mostly because the A2 upper gives me more room for my fingers in offhand, but also because I'm weirded out about having another component that could loosen up or something.)

You definitely won't want to be swapping stocks around even though it would be possible, you basically want to get the rifle set up and get hard zeros and then leave it alone. If you get even a little bit serious about competing in the service rifle class you'll most likely end up building a dedicated rifle anyway (actually you'll probably end up with more than one, I have four at the moment.)

I'll have to do some research because I don't know what "legging out" means. I'm competitive by nature and have been shooting handgun action sports more than anything else recently, but mostly I'd like to sharpen my rifle skills and have some fun.

Here's a little bit about legging out: http://www.thecmp.org/Competitions/DistinguishedBadges.htm

 

[mac1911]

I did something simular to what you are thinking.
I have the RRA NM A2 rifle I don't shoot a lot and this rifle will out shoot and out last me for the foreseeable future. I then wanted a "varmint" style rifle but also something I could easily set up for cmp/service rifle as a spare or to let people try. So I bought a RRA NM A4. Purchased a leupold mark series scopecmount and mounted my trusty old vintage VXIII. I knocked off the front sight and installed a light weight free float tube for coyote hunting.

I think if your looking to cover a lot of ground match/service/scope out of one rifle a A4 flat top might be best.
Ohh and the front sight vanishes when I look through my scope. Before I removed it that is.

 

[kingfisher]

So was I and so was I.

Awesome! Semper Fi.

It sounds like you probably want to shoot service rifle, which is awesome. We always need more service rifle shooters!

The match I shot was with a service rifle, and that's what I'm thinking. It brought back memories!

If you decide to start with service rifle you ~could~ get a match grade removable carry handle sight and use that. Many good shooters do, including the AMU guys last I knew, but the majority of us go with a standard A2 style sight. (For me it's mostly because the A2 upper gives me more room for my fingers in offhand, but also because I'm weirded out about having another component that could loosen up or something.)

Could you explain the bolded part a little?

In photos it looks like the removable carry handle has less room to reach through to release the bolt. I don't know if my hand would fit. Maybe shooters reach over the top instead, but I don't think that's what you're talking about here. Why is the A2 upper better for you in offhand?

You definitely won't want to be swapping stocks around even though it would be possible, you basically want to get the rifle set up and get hard zeros and then leave it alone.

Agreed. For an extra few hundred dollars, it would definitely be worth setting up second lower if I want a different stock when the scope is on the rifle.

 

[jasons]

In offhand I hold the delta ring with my weak hand and wrap my fingers over the ejection port and through the carry handle. There's plenty of room for my fingers with an A2, not enough with an A4.

 

[mac1911]

You will end up with a few lowers..... believe me.
Plus on my RRA A2 I have a A1 length stock. A2 on my flat top with scope. changing out stocks is a PITA easy but a pain.

 

[kingfisher]

I think if your looking to cover a lot of ground match/service/scope out of one rifle a A4 flat top might be best.
Ohh and the front sight vanishes when I look through my scope. Before I removed it that is.

I'm curious. Was the view through the scope above the front sight, or was the front sight just blurred out because the scope was focused on a distant object? You couldn't see the front sight at all?

Would it matter? I'm not sure, but I'm glad that what I want to do seemed to work for you! Although, I do not intend to remove the front sight, so it's pretty important that there's a solution that works.

 

[mac1911]

I'm curious. Was the view through the scope above the front sight, or was the front sight just blurred out because the scope was focused on a distant object? You couldn't see the front sight at all?

Would it matter? I'm not sure, but I'm glad that what I want to do seemed to work for you! Although, I do not intend to remove the front sight, so it's pretty important that there's a solution that works.

I don't know how or why it works but the front sight is not seen through the scope?
I was going to leave the A4 flat top NM as is and just swap out the scope/carry handle....but its hard to leave them alone when you have extra parts laying around.
Plus the NM free float set up is heavy vs aluminum free float tube. Also better for the bipod set up
Also the A4 NM upper was cheaper than the varmint model I was looking at.

 

[PatMcD]

With enough magnification (maybe 6x and above) the front sight will be so out of focus that it "disappears".

 

[kingfisher]

In offhand I hold the delta ring with my weak hand and wrap my fingers over the ejection port and through the carry handle. There's plenty of room for my fingers with an A2, not enough with an A4.

Thanks. I can see how that would help keep the barrel elevated.

With enough magnification (maybe 6x and above) the front sight will be so out of focus that it "disappears".

Great to have confirmation. I won't worry about it then.

White Oak is out of stock and not even taking orders. I'm looking at Keystone Accuracy and Rock River Arms (need to talk to a local FFL). Are there any other companies/manufacturers I should consider?

I'm looking for either a complete service rifle or at least a complete A4, AWB compliant upper with a 20" barrel.

Any preference between 1:7 twist stainless and RRA's "20 Inch Air Gauged Heavy Match Stainless, 1:8 Twist, Cryogenically Treated" barrel? I'm not even sure what all of that means! I doubt I'll be shooting anything over 80 grains. I don't reload (yet?), so my ammo will be whatever I can buy online.

 

[jasons]

I'd go with keystone or compass lake if white oak isn't taking orders. I would not buy a rock river.

 

[kingfisher]

Cool. I'm getting there...

What other barrels should I consider if Krieger isn't available?

 

[jasons]

Cool. I'm getting there... What other barrels should I consider if Krieger isn't available?

Honestly I would not get a Krieger unless you really want to commit to the sport. Kriegers do seem to last longer but they're also more expensive. A Wilson or Green Mountain or whatever "house brand" keystone has on the shelf will shoot x's for at least 2500 rounds or so if you do your part.

 

[VIzsladad]

I would not buy a rock river.

Why not RRA, I have one from a number of years ago, and it out shoots me. I have been very happy with mine and like it quite a-lot.

I know everyone likes different things and that's fine. In my opinion get whatever rifle you like, and try to get your hands on as many as you can to see the difference, then choose the one you like. Any good quality rifle will do if it is a NM rifle. just my 2 cents not to stir things up.
Dave S

 

[mac1911]

I'd go with keystone or compass lake if white oak isn't taking orders. I would not buy a rock river.

I can only assume given the choices you would not buy a RRA, am i correct in that? I know there is more things done to CLE,WOA ect ect vs a stock RRA NM. I only purchased RRA because I know I most likely will never shoot out the barrel ( i average about 200/250 rnds out of my NM yearly) I also did not want to wait 9 months for the others( wait time in 2011)
I also will most likely never be shooting on average better than 90%...due to lack of practice and trigger time. I dont believe even if "I " had a fully decked out CLE or WOA that I would suddenly shoot any better....now if I was chasing high master score and just could not get there with the RRA then i would look into something else.
Its all up to the individual..... the 500.00 I saved WOA vs RRA went to a scope/stand/sling and some other gear i needed.... again I do not get to shoot often but when I do I go to a match!

 

[jasons]

Why not RRA

The quality is not up to par for the price IMHO. For example I've seen multiple people break the sling swivels off of the float tubes on a RR, never seen that happen with a WOA. Also as far as I know (at least last I checked) RR doesn't pin the rear sights (granted it's arguable if that actually matters or not, but it's at least an option with WOA / CLE / Keystone) and RR uses a cheesy way of getting 1/4 minute elevation. (They basically drill twice the number of detents in the drum rather than using a finer pitch thread.) Same basic end result but the RR sights feel "mushy" to me whereas the WOA sights give a nice positive click when you adjust them. You don't want to be putting a last second wind dope on before you drop into your rapids and not be sure how many clicks that was. Also WOA and CLE drums are clearly marked with numbers for reference, not just little dots like the RR.

Also, these smaller companies are staffed (and / or owned) by active high-power competitors who know how to shoot. They "get" high-power and know how to build a rugged gun that will last. Go look up John Holliger's (owner of WOA) name on the President's 100 results for the last decade (or more?) and see what I mean. Guess who builds his rifles? That dude walks the walk.

I can only assume given the choices you would not buy a RRA, am i correct in that?

Sure, if Rock River was the only game in town I'd buy a Rock River. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the $500 though, last I looked a RR upper actually costs about $100 ~more~ than a WOA. (Granted you won't have to wait as long to get it.)



EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not hateing on RR here. I'm sure that a good shooter could leg out and make high master with a RR. I just think there are better values for the money.

 

[mac1911]

The quality is not up to par for the price IMHO. For example I've seen multiple people break the sling swivels off of the float tubes on a RR, never seen that happen with a WOA. Also as far as I know (at least last I checked) RR doesn't pin the rear sights (granted it's arguable if that actually matters or not, but it's at least an option with WOA / CLE / Keystone) and RR uses a cheesy way of getting 1/4 minute elevation. (They basically drill twice the number of detents in the drum rather than using a finer pitch thread.) Same basic end result but the RR sights feel "mushy" to me whereas the WOA sights give a nice positive click when you adjust them. You don't want to be putting a last second wind dope on before you drop into your rapids and not be sure how many clicks that was. Also WOA and CLE drums are clearly marked with numbers for reference, not just little dots like the RR.

Also, these smaller companies are staffed (and / or owned) by active high-power competitors who know how to shoot. They "get" high-power and know how to build a rugged gun that will last. Go look up John Holliger's (owner of WOA) name on the President's 100 results for the last decade (or more?) and see what I mean. Guess who builds his rifles? That dude walks the walk.




Sure, if Rock River was the only game in town I'd buy a Rock River. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the $500 though, last I looked a RR upper actually costs about $100 ~more~ than a WOA. (Granted you won't have to wait as long to get it.)



EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not hateing on RR here. I'm sure that a good shooter could leg out and make high master with a RR. I just think there are better values for the money.

I was looking at rra rear sight I did notice the difference in detention holes. Less on top more on bottom of the drum.
I don't have anything to compare it to other than standard A2 rear sight on another RRA and a STAG...I will say it feels better on the NM model. I was thinking of drilling another detent hole for the elevation drum?
In 2011 (on memory) I think WOA upper was 700.00 plus shipping vs the 950 shipped for the RRA complete rifle..... if I do get the time to become more active I'm sure I will upgrade at some point....I have had my rifle since Nov 2011 and still have not put 1k rounds through it!

 

[jasons]

$950 for a complete rifle is a good deal for sure.

The drum is reversible. If you wanted to switch for some reason just take it apart, flip the drum over, and reassemble. (Watch out for the little springs and detent ball things, they like to make a run for it.)

 

[VIzsladad]

I have to say the same thing, I got my RRA about 6 years ago, and have about 2000 rounds, yeah the barrel is near it's end but it still is holding for me. As far as shooting skills I am a SS now and in time I am going to change a few things but I will be staying with the rifle. My original cost delivered to me was 950+/-.

so now as I am seeing improvement $75 for a sight pin from Keystone and a new barrel and it should take me to the next levels.

As a way for folks to get into the sport you can't beat the RRA. But I do understand where you are coming from and your feelings. My feeling is do what you like and let it be your own choice. If you are not happy then you would not continue in what you are doing. Weather it be a RRA, WOA, CLE, or any of the other makers of NM rifles if it works for you then get out and join us. when starting or in the sport just as a casual shooter it is less about the rifle than it is the skills behind it.

I do not recommend one brand over another and I never will, but I fully understand where you are coming form in regards to improvement and upper level shooting. And I take no offense in what ever is said about any brand, as I have said shoot what you like, just get out and shoot.

As the motto of Shooting USA "Shoot Often and share your sport"

 

[mac1911]

$950 for a complete rifle is a good deal for sure.

The drum is reversible. If you wanted to switch for some reason just take it apart, flip the drum over, and reassemble. (Watch out for the little springs and detent ball things, they like to make a run for it.)

Well aware of the detent/spring run aways....my 6 yr old is a master of finding all things that go fling!
2011 I got my rra from Peter Southwick of leagal transfers out of NH.
I could not build a MN rifle for that price. I was going to go WOA but 9 month wait was just to long. Now 3 yrs later I have even les time to shoot I don't see the point of doing much of any improvements. If I can get into the higher end of the 700s I would bexmore inclined to upgrade.

 

[Zeke]

$950 is a great price but it's also ancient history. I believe they list for $1300-1400 now. Pete may get a little less but I wouldn't count on it. I have a RRA A2 upper, never used, that I would sell to a local shooter for what I paid, $815. I'll eat the shipping. I bought it as a backup but have since switched to match rifle. Have not listed it anywhere yet but if interested let me know. I'm not in a must sell situation, have kids that will eventually get to it.

 

[jasons]

Jasons, you sound lke you know a lot about Service Rifle... Is there going to be any interest in moving beyond the A2 platform? I'd love to compete with an A4gery with Matech BUIS.

The USMC teams shoot A4s today and they're legal. You won't be able to use the Matech sight, but if you threw a removable carry handle on you'd be service rifle legal. (Assuming everything else already is; stock, hand guards / float tube, etc.)

You can use whatever sights you want in NRA matches but the Matech would put you in the match rifle class and thus at a significant disadvantage.

 

[mac1911]

$950 is a great price but it's also ancient history. I believe they list for $1300-1400 now. Pete may get a little less but I wouldn't count on it. I have a RRA A2 upper, never used, that I would sell to a local shooter for what I paid, $815. I'll eat the shipping. I bought it as a backup but have since switched to match rifle. Have not listed it anywhere yet but if interested let me know. I'm not in a must sell situation, have kids that will eventually get to it.

If you call Pete you just might be surprised ..... if of course you want a RRA?