MilSurp of the Month; August '13 - Antiques

majspud

majspud

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Rules:

1. Antiques only this month, as defined by original tang/receiver manufacturer date of 1898 or before.
2. Any original pre-1899 weapon allowed.
3. Limit of three guns per person.
4. Up to four pictures per entry with brief information; cost, significance, etc.
5. If multiple entries, please put in title (go advanced) "Entry #2", etc.
6. Entries close Wednesday August 28; voting ends Saturday August 31.
7. Chit chat/comments/reps allowed - this is supposed to be fun - we all like to show off



Entry #1. TFLeader - 1878 M1873 Springfield Trapdoor/bayonet


Entry #2. MajSpud - 1849 M1839/55 Prussian .72 rifled musket/cam bayonet
2-2- =4

Entry #3. bbarer - Martini-Henry Gahendra; based on an 1869 Westley Richards patented design, in 577/450
2- =2

Entry #4. Martin08: 1876 K.Mod.71 single shot Mauser Cavalry Carbine in 11 X 60mm
3-2 =3

Entry #5. MajSpud(#2) - 1890 M88 Commission Contract Rifle in 8mm, by Loewe, Berlin. Turkish WWI aid.


Entry #6. TFLeader(#2) - M1798 Eli Whitney contract musket in .69 cal.; double conversion, carbine length
1-1 =6

Entry #7. noddaduma - M1896 Krag rifle rearsenaled with 1902 sights


Entry #8. MajSpud Entry(#3) - Erfurt 1893 M1888 Comission Karabiner Bavarian Cavalry Unit Marked
3- =1

Entry #9. 50_Grain - 1897 Swiss model 1896/11


Entry #10. Martin08(#2) - 1893 Chatellerault built M91; WWI German Capture 'Deutschland' marked
1-3- =4

Entry #11. 50 BMG - 1892 trapdoor
3- =1

Entry #12. 50 BMG(#2) - Cadet trapdoor
2- =2

Entry #13. WWII_Collector - 1864 M1862 Joslyn breech loading carbine
3-1 =4

Entry #14. JuergenG - Danzig 1876 M1871 I.G.
3-1-1 =7

Entry #15. JuergenG - Spandau 1888 M1871/84, I.G. matching
2-

Entry #16. camojunky - M1887 Swedish Nagant revolver



T
 
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1873 Springfield Trapdoor

1873 Springfield Trapdoor, produced at the Springfield Armory in 1878, w/ bayonet. Purchased in Wheatland, CO from Rich Wyatt.

1873A.jpg

1873B.jpg

1873C.jpg

1873D.jpg
 
M1839/55 Prussian rifled percussion musket in .72 cal. This particular piece was made as a contract musket by the C.G. Haenel firm in Suhl (from the (C).G.H. on the lock) in 1849 as a musket and converted to a rifle musket in or soon after 1855, as the newest model 1839's were converted to rifles first. The model 1839 was also the first musket made in percussion and not converted to one. This rifle has the mount remains of a flip rear sight. The rifle is regimental marked to a Guards unit: G.S.W., Garde Schutze, and the W probably stands for the State of Westphalia in Germany (the only "W" state I could find of the period), as contract arms of the period armed the local states while the Prussian Arsenal weapons went to the army. The rest, 1B 3C over 82 is understandable; first battalion, third company, weapon 82. Special cam-style bayonet is marked #86. Later company marked K over #78.

Many German muskets were imported during the Civil War, and they were well thought of and as reliable as the M1842 smooth bore Springfield. The arms sent over to the American Civil War were mostly M1809 conversion muskets and a few newer M1839 muskets. The M1839 and especially the M1839/55 were being held in reserve while Prussia was updating to the breech loading M1841 Zundnadel Gewehr (Needle rifle). The Union Army imports alone totaled 165,073 muskets, mostly the M1809. 22,250 of the total number imported were rifled-muskets. With its Regimental markings, this rifle most likely stayed in Germany during the Civil War and made its way over later as surplus. After being sold out of service, the rear sight was knocked off and the rifling reamed out, turning this rifle-musket into a shotgun - which was the fate of more than a few of these types. The ram-rod was also replaced with a M1858 style Enfield at some point as well. Even without it's rifling or rear sight it's a rare arm according to an author of a book on Prussian Arms of the Civil War, especially having its bayonet, and he valued it at about $1500.

I bought it at the 140th Anniversary Battle of 1st Manassas in 2001 when I was a CW re-enactor. I toted it as a private when I took a break as Captain, or later as Major of the NE Confederates, 6th Battalion, A.N.V. I paid $600 then for a total rust bucket, inside and out. The first cap I put through it shot a shower of rust flakes out the muzzle. Spend a lot of time working on the rust and cleaning and oiling the stock.

Took it to the range a week or so back. Once I found the right load, 90 gr. of 3F powder, I put 9 of 13 rounds in a 30 inch square with four on paper. Bit of a bruise on the shoulder.

Sorry for the long post, but this piece has a lot of history behind it.

T







 
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Martini-Henry Gahendra not sure the exact age but definately mid 1800's or so: The Martini-Henry Gahendra was based on an 1869 Westley Richards patented design, this unique and extremely rare early breechloading Military Rifle 577/450 Martini-Henry calibre was produced under the direction of General Gahendra Rana in the 1880's to provide Ghurka regiments with what appeared to be the latest British Military Rifle. An ingenious design, it really surpassed the standard Martini in that its entire action was removable as one unit for ease of servicing or exchange. Production however caused massive logistic problems and by 1894 the Ghurkas were dangerously short of viable .450 cal. breechloaders to face ever growing threats from the east. Finally the British came to the rescue with a delivery of several thousand Martini short lever rifles in late 1894 and even more long lever Martini Rifles in 1908. The over complicated Gahendra Rifle was thereafter basically shelved, the void in up-to-date arms having been met. Always considered the rarest Martini variety of all, the Gahendra Rifle has a characteristic loading lever but in other respects closely resembles the standard Martini externally.

Cost was less than $100 when I got it covered in Yak grease (makes cosmoline look like WD-40!!) and barely recognizable as a firearm. IMA is selling them now for close to $300 in crappy shape. This one is all original and in what can only be described as excellant shape, quite possibly unissued. I haven't fired it as I had read the Indians used questionable mettalurgy and they tend to blow up...




 
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Martini-Henry Gahendra not sure the exact age but definately mid 1800's or so: The Martini-Henry Gahendra was based on an 1869 Westley Richards patented design, this unique and extremely rare early breechloading Military Rifle 577/450 Martini-Henry calibre was produced under the direction of General Gahendra Rana in the 1880's to provide Ghurka regiments with what appeared to be the latest British Military Rifle. An ingenious design, it really surpassed the standard Martini in that its entire action was removable as one unit for ease of servicing or exchange. Production however caused massive logistic problems and by 1894 the Ghurkas were dangerously short of viable .450 cal. breechloaders to face ever growing threats from the east. Finally the British came to the rescue with a delivery of several thousand Martini short lever rifles in late 1894 and even more long lever Martini Rifles in 1908. The over complicated Gahendra Rifle was thereafter basically shelved, the void in up-to-date arms having been met. Always considered the rarest Martini variety of all, the Gahendra Rifle has a characteristic loading lever but in other respects closely resembles the standard Martini externally.

Cost was less than $100 when I got it covered in Yak grease (makes cosmoline look like WD-40!!) and barely recognizable as a firearm. IMA is selling them now for close to $300 in crappy shape. This one is all original and in what can only be described as excellant shape, quite possibly unissued. I haven't fired it as I had read the Indians used questionable mettalurgy and they tend to blow up...

Nice piece! I have one if the $200 IMA's. Who was selling them before IMA?
 
This one came all wrapped up with a very thick layer of yak grease and rags. It was in a collection that was on consignment at a gun shop in Iowa. I was working out there and saw it, when I asked what it was, the guy at the counter said "who cares give me $100 and its yours" For a joke I said $99 and you got a deal....I got a deal!

It wouldn't surprise me if it came from IMA as I have never seen any others aside from their cache. It has no import marks or any in english for that matter...
 
Short little gem.

Very few of these escaped caliber conversions, and this one is an original that is not cut down from a full length model. Bolt is not matched, but I'll take it in this configuration anyway. A rare bird, and no import marks.

K.Mod.71 single shot Mauser Cavalry Carbine in 11 X 60mm.


71_K_Mod_004.jpg

71_K_Mod_010.jpg


71_K_Mod_006.jpg

71_K_Mod_007.jpg




Check out the size of the throat on that sucker! Built in 1886. Put in service in 1877.

This is a short Cavalry version Mauser that was initially commissioned for Frederick Wilhelm (FW) of Prussia at the factory of Österreichische Waffenfabriksgesellschaft, or what is now Steyr. The unit numbers (3.G.U.2.136) the 3d (Prussian) Garde-Ulan (Regiment), 2d squadron, weapon number 136 in squadron. Ulan (sometimes Uhlan) = lancer. Regiment raised 1860.

The receiver and bolt were initially in the white. The barrel and other metal were originally blued, but age, wear and patina have taken all but what little remains under the stock line.

The 11X60 black powder cartridge only traveled at about 850fps, so it had to be BIG to be effective in a single shot offering. One of my coolest, for sure. Thanks for looking!
 
MajSpud Entry #2

1890 Gew88/05 Commission rifle, by Loewe, Berlin. This rifle was made under contract by Loewe, which later became Deutsche Waffen-und-Munitionen Fabriken by WWI.



The rifle is a total mismatch mismatch except the bolt. This rifle was modified into the 1905 pattern to accept the 7.92x57 S-patronen (spitzer = pointed, patronen = bullet). There is the 'S' on the top of the receiver. In the next two pictures you can see the little notch cut out at the base of the receiver to allow clearance for the bullet tip. The rear of the action also has two wings welded to either side for a charger cut out for a 5-round stripper clip. The bottom of the magazine was closed and a curled tip spring was added that doubles as a follower. The left of the magazine has a thumb cut out and a spring held retaining lip to hold the rounds in place. The original charger looked like a M95 Steyr charger, save square with round nose bullets. The clip fell out the bottom like a Steyr/Mannlicher as well. I have found that after nearly 110 years, the retention clip is a little weak/narrow and sometimes the next round or the whole magazine is ejected straight up out of the rifle. The lack of a true follower is a weakness in the design to me; sometimes the bullets dive and jam as in a badly tuned Lee-Enfield magazine (I know about that). This rifle was sent as German aid to Turkey in WWI. The Turks rebuilt/replaced many parts and re-barreled it (proof marked and has a pristine bore) as well; as seen by the small crescent markings on the bolt and two screws. All the parts still bear German proofs, but none of the numbers match. There is a Turkish rack number on the bottom of the receiver.









I use light modern loads in it; 148gr soft-points. While it could handle the sS-patronen of WWI/II (heavy pointed bullet, 7.92x57, 196gr. boat tail) in its day, it was not designed for those pressures and is risky to do so today. This was the third rifle I bought; summer of '96 at the Kittery Trading Post for $50. It has the original double slotted cleaning rod which is nearly impossible to find. I put the reproduction sling on it two years ago. I took this rifle to Schutzen-Meister events at my old club in '99. 30 rounds at 200 yards; max score 300 points. The other guys are using polycarbonate stocked target rifles with stabilizers and spotting scopes. I'm using open original iron sights with S/B factory ammo in the pocket of my jeans. Of course I had no chance of winning, but I posted a score of 238 one time - and got several raised eyebrows. Ah, but that was before bifocals and four surgeries.

T
 
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US Contract Musket Model 1798, Whitney (Entry #2)

US Contract Musket , Model 1798 by Eli Whitney, New Haven, CT. This is one of 10,000 muskets made by Eli Whitney. This .69 caliber musket appears to have been converted to percussion at one time and then converted back to flint lock. This barrel has also been shortened and now has 2 of the original bands. 26 other contractors made these muskets for the United States however most only produced between 1,000 and 2,000 firearms.

1798a.jpg

1798b.jpg

1798c.jpg
 
Model 1896 US Army Krag rifle.

Chambered in 30-40 Krag, this rifle saw action in the Spanish American War and I believe was factory refurbished like many other Model 1896's. The stock has a "P" stamp but not the inspector's stamp, which is a hint this might have been. Another hint is that it sports a 1902 rear site and corresponding front post. I can easily shoot 1 to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds with Lyman #311299 cast bullet and 17 gr Alliant 2400.

Very smooth action. If you ever have the opportunity to shoot one, please do so!

Edit: oops! Got over-zealous with the photos. The lighting outside was perfect for pictures! Reduced the count to four.

tusabegu.jpg


u2ubu8y3.jpg


9epebe2y.jpg


Spawn of Nodda Duma provided for scale:

ma8ujyme.jpg
 
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TFL

VERY nice contract rifle. To bad about the cut-down, but at least it has been restored. Two-banders did exist, so it doesn't look that bad at all. I'd like an American to go with my Prussian, but am running out of lintel space.

T

- - - Updated - - -

noddaduma said:
Sorry..I was removing them probably as you were posting. I couldn't help it...the lighting was perfect for photos :)
Click to expand...

No biggie; I liked the Spawn part. I probably spent 10 minutes changing my mind on my last post which 4 would give the most info. Only men who are MilSurp collectors can say 'nice wood' without offending someone.

T
 
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MajSpud Entry #3 (NOT)

Model 1880 oak door from a reclamation warehouse in New Bedford. 19 hours to strip, sand, prime, paint, trim, and metal work. 14 hours of the work one handed, up hill both ways, in the snow, barefoot...well, the one handed part is true. Note the current current rotted out door.



[rofl2]

Had to do it. Gets installed next week with a new threshold (house built 1879). Then I can repaint the steps.

T

Door in; 7 month project!
 
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Awesome entries so far! I'll be posting my antique as soon as I find some information on it I've been searching so hard for.
 
MajSpud Entry #3: Erfurt 1893 M1888 Comission Karabiner Bavarian Cavalry Unit Marked

Just won on auction; posting now in case it doesn't make it in time. This cost $200 less than the Danish Krags I was looking at. I couldn't pass this one up, and as I will have only one Krag, I'll wait until I find an all matching one. I'll do a full post once it gets here and I do a little work on it.

100% matching Bavarian Cavalry unit marked 1893 Erfurt M1888 Commission Karabiner. My FIRST all matching rifle. I've a friend who is into these and told me to get it at all hazards if I could. He saved me all the work by telling me what I have. It is a diamond in the rough with a few issues, but for a variety of reasons I spent $70 more for this than another matching piece without a unit mark.

From my Gew88 friend:

This was built in 1893 for the P.88 round with the long .318 diameter 225gr. bullet. It was re-barreled some time after 1895 with a "n.m" barrel, the "neus" material (new material) barrels were first produced in 1895. The carbine was updated for the Spitzer round in 1905 with the S stamped to indicate the original barrel had the throat reamed out to take the .323 bullet 150gr. Some time after receiving the 1905 update of the chamber reaming to accept the spitzer bullet it was re-barreled yet again with a (.) barrel which indicates a reenforced chamber/heavy barrel.

It already has the correct clip in the magazine, and I can shoot any 8mm out of it, but I'll probably use the light 148gr. HotShot SP ammo for it. M44 types look out - a 8mm with a 17" barrel will have a pretty loud bang and flame tongue!

The unit mark is of the Bavarian 2nd Chevauleger Regiment, 2nd Troop, 54th Rifle. The Chevauleger units were only used by Bavaria. Unit marked on BOTH sides of the muzzle.

Issues:

1. Small crack in stock on right side on top of recoil lug.
2. Someone cut off the sling bar on the left side of the lower band. I'll see if I can have one fabricated for it as I've found a correct repro sling for it, and it is the original matching piece.
3. Barrel has good rifling, but has some rust.
4. Stock has been sanded; cartouches are light. Most likely during one of the updates.
5. Lower band also has a broken spring.

Thanks for the look,









Update:
1. Imperial marked rear spring is here
2. Acra-glass is here to fix the stock; got a syringe to do it well
3. Sling on the way
4. Found a place that can laser weld and specializes in firearms; $125 for the job
 
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Damn, I was to enter my Kar.88 this month. Now I've got to take pics of one of the other antique boomsticks to post.
Nice acquisition! I've squirreled away some 8x57I (.318) ammo to shoot it with.
 
JuergenG said:
Damn, I was to enter my Kar.88 this month. Now I've got to take pics of one of the other antique boomsticks to post.
Nice acquisition! I've squirreled away some 8x57I (.318) ammo to shoot it with.
Click to expand...

So yours is an original '88' and didn't get the S upgrades? Is it an "N.M."?

T
 
I have the same style carbine some where in the back of the safe. I will have to dig it out, and take some pictures.That was a nice find, congrats.
 
Swiss model 1896/11. Purchased as a regular firearm from a MA FFL. It's considerably more accurate than I am, except it shoots 12" high at 100 yards since the lowest sight setting is for 300 meters. Goes out to 2000 meters, too. [smile]
I shoot mid-powered handloads with 165 and 168-grain Noslers. It loves 'em.


The big long one. The other is a 1950's K-31. Also a better shooter than I am.


Stock date of 12-8-97 [grin]


The "M+" stamp is for an acceptance mark for a large metal part
The "dB" looking thing is the pressure proof test
The Swiss cross is the "passed shooting test" mark
I think the "B" is another shooting test stamp.
There's also an "H&H" on the bottom for Hämmerli & Hausch (later became Hämmerli)


These were made from 1895 thru 1912. The serial number puts the receiver and barrel born-on date at early 1898, the 3rd year of production. The big "P" privatized stamp was added on when the soldier kept his rifle upon retirement from the service.
The 1896 rifles were upgraded to add a pistol-grip-ish bump on the stock, and a new barrel and sights for the more powerful GP11 cartridge, and a new mag. The mag is removable, but is serially matched to the gun, and only one mag was issued.
 
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Nope, no S on the receiver. Haven't checked for the N.M. yet as I was rather interested in
all matching numbers - which it's got.
BTW, the unit mark on mine is only present on the l/h side of the ears, nothing on the r/h side.

ETA: nm for "Neues Material" is present under the Kar.88 marking.
 
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Next.


Interesting rifles seem to beg me to buy them. Went a little overboard paying for this one, but there aren't too many original complete 1893 Chatellerault (french built!) Mosin Nagant M91 barreled actions left on the market. And the WWI German Capture Deutschland stamp on the receiver with Deutsch Reich cartouche on the stock don't hurt.


1893chatellerault_015.jpg

1893chatellerault_017.jpg

1893chatellerault_007.jpg

1893chatellerault_022.jpg




A few interesting points, not usually seen.

1. The Finns rebuilt this gun after purchasing WWI surplus, and left the original arshini distance graduation stamps (usually ground off) on the right side rear sight base, and instead, applied metric distance graduations on the left side.
2. The [SA] Finn Army property stamp was applied to the left side of the receiver, instead of the barrel.
3. Plugged wire loop hole in the forestock (former German sling hanger), with an interesting 'sliver-of-wood-style' stock repair.
4. Somewhat crudely added rear sling slot in the 1895 Tula stock, when the sling slots were added in the 1910 upgrade.
6. Tula buttplate, original numbers applied to rear surface vs. the upper tang.
7. Front barleycorn-style sight looks like it was filed down, a long time ago.
8. The smooth elongated cleaning rod head is rather cool looking. Rod is steel, not brass. Probably a Finn production
9. Undated receiver tang (common on early French-built Mosins), and plugged receiver ring (grease?) hole - not too many of these early receivers around.

Really needs ten more pics to show it all, but rules are rules! Thanks for looking.

[wink]
 

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